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The Rise and Fall of Donald Trump

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by The Geezer, 20 Jan 2021.

  1. dowie

    Capo Crimine

    Joined: 29 Jan 2008

    Posts: 51,225

    OK, where? What specifically?

    Where did I say it wasn't insurrection? Where did I say none of this was pre-planned? You're again conflating different things and disputing claims that haven't been made. I referred to the notion of this being a coup as being a LARP. I've also yet to see evidence that storming the Capitol was pre-planned - there might be some - I'm open to it but so far it mostly seems to be spontaneous. If you've got anything specific here then link to it. don't just claim there is a load of evidence and then only be able to quote some ambiguous snippet.

    So far you keep replying to me and conflating rather different things - evidence that groups planned to organise a protest or things relating to that etc.. isn't evidence that they pre-planned storming the Capitol. So far we've not seen that... also evidence that they planned to storm the Capitol isn't in itself evidence of a plan for some sort of coup.

    These are different things - if you think I'm denying that a protest and riot took place or that there were plans for that then to be clear I'm not.

    Based on what evidence?
     
  2. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: 11 Jan 2014

    Posts: 2,289



    Its unclear but its sedition rather than coup LARPing that has been claimed as a possible description of the seriousness and potential charge here.

    The circumstances behind the interview are unusual, as this is a Trump appointed D.O.J prosecutor and its not normal to comment on a case in this way for a D.O.J official

    Still in a world where people conjure with coup LARPing as a possible defense for these actions, clearly anything goes, we are way past norms and normality these days.

    source
     
  3. Sankari

    Caporegime

    Joined: 29 Dec 2007

    Posts: 26,741

    Location: Adelaide, South Australia

    Trump now so desperate for money, his fundraising emails have become blatantly threatening.

    [​IMG]
     
  4. Murphy

    Soldato

    Joined: 16 Sep 2018

    Posts: 6,301

    Not to detract from your source as it's mightily refreshing to see someone providing a link, but if you're interested the DOJ have a dedicated page of all the Capitol breach cases, along with the charges and associated documents.
     
  5. Pottsey

    Mobster

    Joined: 29 May 2006

    Posts: 4,545

    The court documents are publicly available for anyone to read. I gave you the militia groups name and the name of key members. All you have to do is click on the public court files or use Google. I gave you direct quotes from the court documents you could have copy and pasted those quote into search or just asked for a link days ago.

    As an example of what you can find in the files, text messages exchanging and coordinating their plans. Included a leadership only conference call titled DC Operation. Reference to commanders, assignments, plans, vetting the new recruits, going out to get military recruits and training them for this operation. Getting tactical gear, training in it, using it then bringing it to the insurrection and moving in an organized and practice fashion. One quote during the insurrection “ WATKINS, telling her to be safe, and stated, "Get it, Jess. Do your ******* thing. This is what we ******* [uninteltigible] up for. Everything we ******* trained for." there is loads like this that shows they trained and preplanned. (I * out the swear words, sure you can work it out)

    This isn't some LARPing about they did a recruitment drive with a goal in mine, did full background checks and vetted those new recruits. Had a leadership and structure in place. Practiced before the insurrection and trained right up to the weeks before the insurrection and they called it a planned insurrection before the event took place.

    https://www.justice.gov/opa/case-multi-defendant/file/1361066/download https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/defendants/caldwell-thomas-edward
    https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/case-multi-defendant/file/1377586/download
    https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.226726/gov.uscourts.dcd.226726
    Capitol Breach Cases | USAO-DC | Department of Justice

    Some of the key files for you to look at Kelly Meggs, Jessica Watkins, Thomas Caldwell, Donovan Crowl, Sandra Parker, Graydon Young, Laura Steele, Connie Meggs, Kenneth Harrelson. Read all the files and you have all your evidence.

    A LARP means its not insurrection. A LARP means its not a coup, you cannot have it both ways and say it was LARP or total LARP and that it was an insurrection. Insurrection means an organized attempt by a group of people to defeat their government and take control of their country, usually by violence: Which is what this milita group planed to do, seize control of the Senate to stop the official proceedings and to stop Biden getting into power. They wanted to stop the current leadership/current government from being in power and to get Trump back in. As I said before just what do you think a LARP is and means. There is no way after looking at the training and extensive plans that this militia group can be called LARPing about. They even had a full backup plans and high ground to fall back.




    How many times have I explained where the evidence came from. Phones, email accounts, social media account, and more all searched. They had internet provider records searched and IP records cross referenced and captured voice recordings. There are direct message between members used as evidence. The court documents talk about extensive planning, training and backup plans. There was even video footage although that's not in the PDF's.
     
    Last edited: 8 Apr 2021 at 09:03
  6. Colonel_Klinck

    Soldato

    Joined: 3 Oct 2007

    Posts: 5,054

    Location: London, UK

    Trump splashed out on a top class criminal defence attorney. Hope he got paid upfront.

     
  7. PlacidCasual

    Soldato

    Joined: 13 May 2003

    Posts: 6,969

    Driving to a rally with placards - planned.
    Driving to Washington to storm the Capitol building - not planned.

    Do you want to bet that any of the Antifa phone calls or email around your regular G7/G20/Davos protests look much like the calls these idiots made before they went to a planned rally and protest event. Hyperbole "smash the system" "fight for something".
    I'm fairly sure on TV I saw stages and PA systems at some event not far from Washington before they went to the actual Capitol building. The demonstration was plainly planned, but this wasn't a coup attempt it was idiots demonstrating that got out of hand that has been retconned to Nazi's under the bed, domestic terrorism, lets black list people we don't like.
     
  8. Pottsey

    Mobster

    Joined: 29 May 2006

    Posts: 4,545

    It depends which group we are talking about. It appears as though the Antifa group did not plan to storm the capitol. The Oath Keepers though all the evidence points towards not just planning but extensive planning training, and recruiting with the goal to storm the capitol. It wasn't just a sprue of the moment thing, this was months in the making with detailed planning, fallback planning and reaching out to other militia groups.
     
  9. PlacidCasual

    Soldato

    Joined: 13 May 2003

    Posts: 6,969

    Sorry if that could have been written better. I wasn't suggesting Antifa were involved. But there are relatively few right wing organized demonstrations at least in the UK and far more left wing ones particularly in Europe and the UK. I was using Antifa or similar as an example of organizing demos because within our frame of experience they're often the ones involved. I was making the point that I imagine their internal communications are very bullish and if you wanted to misconstrue them could easily do so. I offered it up as a comparison only.
     
  10. Pottsey

    Mobster

    Joined: 29 May 2006

    Posts: 4,545

    I understand now. Yes I agree, I get that some of Antifa and other groups internal communications would be very bullish and could be taken to be more then they apear. I don't think that's the case with the Oath Keepers due to the supporting evidence but for the other groups that is a good point.

    EDIT: Now I am not being clear. Some of the Oath Keepers internal communication would have been bullish as well. But the evidence at least for this 1 group is more then just bullish speaking. The other groups appear to be mostly bullish speaking.
     
  11. dowie

    Capo Crimine

    Joined: 29 Jan 2008

    Posts: 51,225

    Thanks, yeah that was acknowledged in one of the earlier links, there seem to be a minority they're trying to get on sedition charges - but part of this seems to be in relation to coordination done in real-time on the day. I mean I'm aware that once it started happening there were clips of some people who'd decided to encourage others into the building etc.. what isn't clear was that this was planned in advance.

    So do you actually have any direct evidence of what you're claiming or not - telling someone else to go do the research etc.. when you're making the claim not me or letting me know that you've told me the names of militia groups is a bit weak here. Either you can back up your claims or not, I'm not being funny here but you keep on replying and conflating different things. I'm already aware that militia groups are present and the names of some of them for example, telling me that isn't adding anything nor is it supporting your claim.

    No one said it was - but practiced what exactly? Practiced fighting Antifa, practiced coordinating stuff at a protest etc.. if faced with opposition? I don't think anyone is disputing that a militia group might recruit people or train etc.. that isn't what I asked you for.

    The bit in bold relates to the claim - I can have it both ways, in fact I can add more - it was a protest, it was a riot. The claim isn't that the protest wasn't real for example that would be absurd.


    Exactly this - no one is disputing the presence of organised groups or that there was planning relating to the protest itself. No one is disputing that some of these militia groups are rather erm odd and that they see this staff as a fight for freedom etc... in the same way some Antifa types think that attacking any conservatives is a fight against "literal facism" and "white supremacy" or some left-wing groups will talk of about any protest as part of some "revolution" (and indeed in some occasions chant that over megaphones - granted newer chants tend to be "black lives matter" instead).

    The main difference with this one is the very very prominent location, the fact it was breached and that fact this was embarrassing globally for the state - ergo considerable resources have been thrown into prosecutions here. It's hardly the first mass protest in the US over the past year - there have been plenty of other large protests including where people have died etc.. and/or including federal buildings being under siege. There was also clearly lots of media hype in the immediate aftermath of this one and plenty of that has had to be walked back + despite the resources being thrown at this it's mostly people getting charged as a result of essentially trespassing in the particular building itself.
     
  12. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: 11 Jan 2014

    Posts: 2,289

    The source and opinion is utterly treacherous, as is saying anything here really. Not a legal expert, but related to lots of people who are. I know not to ask relatives for informal legal advice as the advice they give can never be viewed as informal.

    The opinion of you and me is nothing legally, the legal opinion of the member of the bar, in U.K. law, is something else entirely, little different in the States.

    What you say on the record has to stand up in court as it can be used in court and if you have made an error, serious professional consequences.

    To comment on an ongoing case like this is not something you do. This is an out going Trump D.O.J official, but he is a senior prosecutor, so it is legal opinion.

    D.O.J has a poor record in regard to the prosecution of Sedition.

    It would not bring a case unless it had a serious evidence, it would also be unusual for it to do so early as, its complex prosecution were legal proof has to be gold standard and then some.

    As these things, they are not just one off events, they affect the future outcome of other cases.

    Serious stuff.

    But that source is odd, but it does appear to suggest, at least some people may be charged with something really deeply serious. Even the more minor charges, the situation, location, action, serious charge.

    I mean here, if you stormed parliament, in a mob, some dressed in fully military gear and a bullet proof vests. How do you think the police would respond and what do you think people would be charged with?

    Its not going to be a slap on the wrists and a nice cup of tea and a sit down with a probation officer. Is it.

    Its not a wise move, going to end up in a world of serious legal consequences.
     
    Last edited: 8 Apr 2021 at 13:23
  13. Pottsey

    Mobster

    Joined: 29 May 2006

    Posts: 4,545

    You have been given the direct evidence multiple times. What is the problem? I gave you the links directly to the court documents that are full of direct evidence, I quoted parts of those documents so you didn’t have to read them but could if you wanted to. I broke down the names of the milita groups and the key members so you can read the direct documents and direct evidence relating to each member and pick out the members that matter.

    What I have been saying is based off the links I gave you from court. The claims I quoted are directly from the federal persecutors backed up with a lot of evidence. Including audio recordings, Internet records and more. You have been provided with links to all the federal persecutors evidence. For example.

    “From at least as early as November 3,2020, through January 6,2021, in the District of Columbia and elsewhere, the defendants, THOMA S CALDWELL , DONOVA N CROWL , JESSIC A WATKINS, SANDRA PARKER , BENNI E PARKER , GRAYDO N YOUNG , LAUR A STEELE , KELL Y MEGGS, CONNI E MEGGS, and KENNET H HARRELSO N did knowingly combine, conspire, confederate, and agree with each other and others known and unknown, to commit an offense against the United States, namely, to corruptly obstruct, influence, and impede an official proceeding, that is, Congress's certification of…”

    “The purpose of the conspiracy was to stop, delay, and hinder Congress's certification of the Electoral College vote.”
    Then it goes into all the evidence. Page after page. There is over 100 pages of supporting evidence over all members.

    the Electoral College vote” https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/case-multi-defendant/file/1378526/download along with the links I gave you before.

    The documents go into how they attended and scheduling trainings to teach and learn paramilitary combat tactics in advance of the January 6 operation; Then Coordinating in advance with others, including members of the Oath Keepers from other regions, and joining forces with these individuals and groups to further the January 6 operation; Bringing and contributing paramilitary gear and supplies. The people in question directly talk about the training being related and used for the January 6 operation as per my quotes before. The Operation where they planed and talk about insurrection and pre planed storming the capital.


    No you cannot, LARP is pretending meaning it did not happen for real. You cannot say insurrection happened and that it was only a LARP the two cannot possibly go together. Either its real and happened or its fake and a LARP. Make up your mind. The Oath Keepers where not pretending they planned and did a real operation in an attempt to storm the capital for real. See direct evidence in the links I gave you before. The simple fact is you are wrong in what you have been saying.



    Practiced paramilitary combat tactics and training with the goal to use that training for the storming the capital operation. They recruited people for the storming the capital operation and vetted them. They extensively planed out and then executed on the day along with extensive fall back and backup plans for different situations. They planned and talked about insurrection before the date, it was a full operation planned, recruited and trained for. With leadership, structure, training. It’s all in the documents you have been provided. You have been provided direct quotes from those documents in my other posts, along with direct quotes from the federal persecutors and I provided you with access to the actual direct evidence. So at what point are you going to admit to being wrong and stop calling them LARPing.
     
    Last edited: 8 Apr 2021 at 14:13
  14. Sankari

    Caporegime

    Joined: 29 Dec 2007

    Posts: 26,741

    Location: Adelaide, South Australia

    Pence has signed a staggering 7 digit figure for two books, one of which will be an autobiography. The other is expected to contain devastating revelations about his experience as Trump's VP.

    The best part is that Trump is no longer president, so he can't try to censor and ban it (as with Bolton's book).
     
  15. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: 11 Jan 2014

    Posts: 2,289

    The simple way to deal with that one.

    Can you think of anyone else who has used this line of defense?

    I can.

    Alex Jones of info wars fame. Sandyhook shootings. He claimed the event was staged by the state using actors to play a role as victims.

    In fact I think it has been used on more than one occasion, its also mainstreaming and mixing with a recent rhetorical tread among Trump republicans to deploy the term 'theatrical' and 'political theater' while presenting 'alternative facts'in relation to mass shootings.
    .
    That is the standard for this kind of defense. If you look at the list of injured police officers here and then note the comparison to 'cosplay' and the chants of hang Mike Pence.

    Seriously unwise type of language to deploy, but people are free to say what they want, no matter how ill judged.
     
  16. Murphy

    Soldato

    Joined: 16 Sep 2018

    Posts: 6,301

    I hate to say it but never, if you've not worked out that dowie will say and do anything in order to avoid admitting fault then you've been caught up in the gravity of a dowie hole without realising.
     
  17. efish

    Wise Guy

    Joined: 11 Jan 2014

    Posts: 2,289

    He will respond to evidence, but does not like direct confrontation. I don't think he thought these claims through and made some rash choices with language. But the claims in both directions were over blown, the coup definition was becoming a bit of a stretch to sustain and he should have explained rather than let that one roll on, but I assume it was to make a point, but it unnecessarily raised the heat as definitions do vary here.
     
  18. Flibster

    Caporegime

    Joined: 18 Oct 2002

    Posts: 34,177

    It's not Trump, it's the NRCC, but damn, it gets worse when you see the whole thing.

    https://secure.winred.com/nrcc/retake-the-house/

    You're already donating, but if you don't make it a recurring donation, you're a defector. Also the additional automatic donation in a weeks time as well...
     
  19. Mercenary Keyboard Warrior

    Capodecina

    Joined: 4 Aug 2007

    Posts: 11,972

    Location: Wilds of suffolk

    The old adage
    "A fool and their money are easily parted"
     
  20. dowie

    Capo Crimine

    Joined: 29 Jan 2008

    Posts: 51,225

    I don't think anyone is disputing that - the point is that in spite of the seriousness for a large portion of the protestors they're struggling to come up with these charges so far and indeed on of the judges has been rather scathing about the arguments used to keep some of them held/denied bail etc..

    Again, you're conflating different things - where am I disputing that militia members are involved here? It's like we're talking past each other now tbh...

    Well, I didn't say that - where did I say anything about insurrection or rioting being a LARP? No one is denying a riot took place here, I've told you that already so why pretend I'm referring to that as LARPing?