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The Sale of Gallows

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by panthro, 9 May 2006.

  1. panthro

    Capodecina

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    This is my first thread in SC and I thought this was an interesting point of discussion?

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/suffolk/4754515.stm

    I assume someone has to build them, but he is clearly milking these poor African countries and he clearly has no problems doing this.

    However, it can be said that this is no different to selling them a gun. At least he is going through this in the correct manner, unlike most black market guns sold to these countries.

    £12, 000 for a few pieces of wood is extortion though.

    Any thoughts on this? Should he be condemned by Amnesty International?
     
  2. phykell

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    rm
     
    Last edited: 6 Aug 2007
  3. Rich_L

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    Is going to banned soon under an EU regulation IIRC? Go go EU :p

    It's a pretty unethical business IMO, but it is legal, so whilst I disagree strongly with the guys activities he isn't breaking any laws at present so it coudl be viewed that the guy is just doing the best for himself albeit pretty distastefully.

    As far as I know, Amnesty are very critical of arms dealing as well, so it's not like they are being hypocritical in their condemnation so I think they are well within their rights to raise objections to this particular loophole circumventing 'arms dealing' restrictions.
     
  4. Johnny Girth

    Wise Guy

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    It's sick, plain and simple. Especially as most people know what those countries are like when it comes to civil rights.

    Shame our governments are just as sick when it comes to selling weapons to developing countries.
     
  5. Dingo

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    Can this be considered as the same thing though?

    Arms sales in general are meant to either defend a country or enable it to attack another country. Sales of gallows aid the elected judiciary system of a Society that is self determining and will not allow countries to attack other countries....unless of course you believe that all prisoners in an armed conflict will be subject to summary execution by this method?.


    Comparing apples and pears here in my opinion!.
     
  6. scorza

    Caporegime

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    Interesting that you seem to be condemning him for charging too much for a gallows rather than for actually selling them in the first place.

    I agree, £12k does seem like an awful lot for something which I don't think is particularly hard to make. One would think you could make them locally in Africa a lot cheaper.

    Personally I'm more than a bit uncomfortable that these things are made in our country then shipped to countries where they'll likely be used ... a lot. But should we really be dictating the internal policies of other countries - how is this different for example to selling them wood that will be used to make gallows? What about selling an Ikea style gallows flat pack?
     
  7. Johnny Girth

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    Yes. But that's not the case here. It's our policy and thankfully this monster won't be able to carry on his macabre trade for much longer.
     
  8. VIRII

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    How will that affect anything? I am fairly sure that rope and trees are common out there and they might even have a carpenter.
    The aspects which amaze me are firstly that he can charge so much for some simple woodwork and secondly that they can't make their own.
    I would have thought firing squads were more effective?
     
  9. Meridian

    Man of Honour

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    It has long been a tradition (it was here, once) to leave the body hanging as an example. Doesn't work so well with shooting victims.


    M
     
  10. VIRII

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    But why not make your own? Why spend that kind of money having them made abroad? Why not just use exisitng trees?
     
  11. starscream

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    It's a very interesting article, although I'm not sure how much debate there is.

    As I see it, what he is doing currently is pretty unethical but at the same time is perfectly legal. From when the EU legislation kicks in, he will have to stop, unless he wants to continue illegally.

    VRII is right, stopping the export of the gallows will make no difference to the internal policies of the countries he is selling them to, as they will simply buy from somewhere else. However, at least by stopping it, we will stop giving the impression that we encourage death as a punishment.
     
  12. Beansprout

    Man of Honour

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    An outstanding film on this subject is Lord of War - watch it if you haven't already :)

    He says "business is business" but really that's just his own attempt to justify being part of the 'murder chain'. I could never make a living from 'dirty money' and explain to my family how I earnt it.

    Whether or not the events would continue if he wasn't allowed to sell these things isn't the issue, the issue is that whether it's immoral enough to prevent trading of such items from this land.

    I believe it is and as such should be stopped.
     
  13. VIRII

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    Thinking about it and the "multi execution platforms" I wonder if sales of Goal Posts will increase ...
     
  14. VIRII

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    Could I build and sell a huge gallows if I was retailing it at £100,000?
    Quite probably, incredibly good money for a bit of woodwork.

    I wonder if someone offered you £500,000 for 5 of those things if you would turn it down assuming you had the capability to make it. It is a very large sum of money indeed.

    Furthermore simply refusing to sell it yourself in the full knowledge that someone else will supply the demand is not quite so principled as it sounds. If it really bothered people then they would be actually doing something about it, trying to stop the executions or get a regime change or something.
    Simply saying "well at least i am not making them" isn't the same as having a particularly deep moral conscience aboutthe issue. In some ways it is more honest to just make them.
     
    Last edited: 9 May 2006
  15. Beansprout

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    I would turn it down for above reasons :)
     
  16. starscream

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    When you say stop the executions or try and get a regime change, do you mean on a personal level, or do you mean the EU should intervine with countries that have a death penalty?
     
  17. Johnny Girth

    Wise Guy

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    Why stop there? Why not take on a few contract killings. If work for someone powerful you might be able to make a nice living out of it.
     
  18. anarchist

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    That's what I wondered. The shipping costs too must be quite high for that size item and I can't believe they can't make their own vastly cheaper, for pennies in fact. It's not like it has to be expertly crafted and designed is it?

    But it does seem a bit hypocritical that the Department of Trade and Industry are taking the moral highground and condemning it while also supporting weapons sales to the same countries, which obviously cause a lot more damage than gallows!
     
  19. VIRII

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    You do as much as you honestly think you can do if your conscience demands it. That might be trying to raise awareness, writing to the MP or joining a rebel army. If it really upsets you then you do what you feel capable of.
     
  20. VIRII

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    I've considered it.