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UK gender pay gap 'worst in EU'

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by pyro, 27 Feb 2006.

  1. pyro

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    Also:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4753360.stm

    Just to make sure, because I am a bit confused here, they are saying that women don't get the same qualifications that men do, thus get paid less, not that a woman working in the same company will get less money than the man because she is a woman.

    If that is the case, what is the big deal? Surely if a person, be that a man or a woman wants to do something, it's upto them to get the qualifications to do it.

    So what's the big deal? It's like saying that builders don't make as much as CEOs of multinational corporations, of course they don't, but it still doesn't make headlines.
     
  2. dirtydog

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    Not this cobblers again, which doesn't compare like with like. Perhaps if we ignore these silly women-biased reports they'll go away..
     
  3. cleanbluesky

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    TBH with such reports I believe there is more of an impetus to find supposed sexism so that the committe can 1) show that they are neccesary 2) prove they are not sexist by finding and decrying sexism...

    But beyond that, such judgements have little value, and therefore 'action' and 'progress' in the issue become subjective.

    If there IS a gender pay gap, it may not be the result of sexism and may not neccesarily be a bad thing. Perhaps women simply choose different industries, or are less willing to work long hours etc... many things scould explain such inequality and simple chalking it up to "sexism" and saying "we've found the problem" is innapropriate because a simple approach will fail to address a complex issue
     
  4. pyro

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    Not when they make headlines :/
     
  5. conundrum

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    Women do better at School but I am not sure if they do better at University because men catch up I would imagine. There is too much politics in all of this and not enough real facts.

    I am not sure if young women are badly advised at school or are not interested but in general, IT for instance is mainly men at the operational level but you do see more women at the management levels in IT although it is still mainly men.

    Maybe stereotypes are being followed and women are not encouraged to follow more male dominated/oriented careers but then again sometimes the nature of the job (ie long hours and call out) is not going to be great or warranted by women with young children.
     
  6. William

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    I wonder if there is a general feeling among women to want to earn more than men in the first place.
     
  7. callmeBadger

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    I don't think the issue is that women get less money the men in the same job with the same qualifications, the problem seems to be, if a woman take 6 months of to have a kid, they do this 2 or 3 times, whilst male (or childless female) collegues have worked their way up the scale. At first glance it would seem that the company is being sexist, due to the male getting promotions and pay increases, but he has worked for it by being there.

    I speak as one of my Project leaders is off for the 3 time in 4 years having another kid. She has had difficult pregnacies each time. (feeling sick and tired - isn't that normal), all 3 have been born healthy and at full term, the second was 3 weeks late.

    She has been of each time at about 24 ish weeks on sick leave, comes in and visits for a couple of days around 38 weeks on maternity leave, visit at around +3 weeks which means the office emties, all men run to make a drink and disappear and all women coo around the sprog. If i say anything I'm the big bad. She has returned the previous 2 occasions after the full 6 months on part time basis. She does 4 hours a day 4 days a week flexi time. does this for about 3 or 4 months and takes random days off for appointments and sickness. beofre she gets knocked up again. and the cycle repeats. last time hopefully.

    She worked for the company 7 months beofre announcing she was pregnant, 6 months was the probation period where she would not qualify for paid maternity. Over 6 years (312 weeks) she has been away from work for 135 weeks, and worked almost 80 weeks on a 4 day 16 hour schedule

    Total work hours (approx) 12480
    Actual worked (approx) 5160

    When another worker, irrelivent of gender works 7000 hours more in the same time frame as a Woman, it is no surprise that they get promoted.

    /rant off
     
  8. conundrum

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    Women should not be penalised because they are going to have children financially, after all they are going to be bringing up the next generation of workers. We need to get over this you aint here because you are pregnant and are therefore somehow worth less.

    We are all worth the same surely.
     
  9. dirtydog

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    Nobody is twisting their arm to have kids, as far as I know.. if they choose to have them then they need to accept the consequences.

    The people who are penalised aren't the women; it is the single childless people who are expected to work long hours and do overtime while some women do what callmeBadger just described.

    You can't have your cake and eat it. If you want to be paid the same as the men and have the same opportunities, then put the same hours in as they do, accept the same responsibilities and make the same sacrifices. Otherwise, get stuffed. All IMHO......
     
  10. William

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    Not to mention that there is maternity pay, child benefits, family allowance which will probably not be included in the income in those studies.
     
  11. conundrum

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    There are no consequences, you make it sound like men do not want children and women must carry the entire can for society requiring children in order to function and exist. I for one am glad that the issue have been raised and is seemingly being addressed.

    If hours of work was the only thing that mattered then we would be in a sorry state. Intelligence, diligence, attitude and many other factors matter in the workplace, just not your workplace by the sounds of it Dirtydog.
     
  12. pyro

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    I am intelligent, I have an attitude, but I get paid solely based on how many hours I work, does your workplace pay you according to your IQ?

    Anyway, you tell me why you think women do not get as much money as men. Why, for example, don't we have a female Becham? Why isn't ladies footy all the time on the telly? And why are most of the construction workers blokes?
    Because, probably, some jobs are better suited mostly to men than women, and it happens that some of these jobs pay better.

    Plus I can't find a link to the actuall research (pre-emptive smartass comments: yes there is a link to a pdf file but the pdf file cannot be found), what sort of data are we talking about? What's the background of the employees? Education/previous work experience?
     
    Last edited: 27 Feb 2006
  13. conundrum

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    Yes you do have an attitide, that much is certain but not intelligence by the sounds of it. Football is not typical of the working world is it ?

    Children are a requirement of society, why should women suffer more than men in their rearing of them any more than is necessary. 6 months maternity leave might sound expensive but it is affordable and a year would probably be better for all concerned.

    There are many changes society can make for a better working and domestic balance.

    Rearing children is not the easyest of tasks and we all should pay for it.
     
    Last edited: 27 Feb 2006
  14. William

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    I will let DirtyDog argue the slur against him but there are consquences to having children.

    >You cannot work for a long time as you have to look after the baby. Why should an employer pay more someone who has not delievered back to the business, give them a promotion etc when there are others who have been there to do more work for the company.

    >Employers often ask or take into account if a women plans to have a child, is engaged to be married, or is married. Possibly for a long term position someone who is not having a child will be chosen.

    >Women don't have the entire can for society as far as I am aware, since there is numerous social benefits to reduce the damage. The vast majority of children are born into couples, often the man is the breadwinner whilst the woman takes care of the child during the day, a man recieves a shorter amount of maternity leave and pay than a woman does for obvious reasons. Even in single relationships the child & mother for the most part recieve money and support from the father.
     
  15. pyro

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    Ah, I see this is getting to the old, I have no argument so I will act like a 13yr old instead.

    Good one mate!:cool:
     
  16. dirtydog

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    There obviously are or we wouldn't be having this conversation or this thread :p

    Women say they want equality but what they really mean is, they want special treatment. Like the women who have the barefaced audacity to argue for equal pay at Wimbledon even though they only play the best of three sets, compared to best of five for men. The Wimbledon situation sums up the hypocrisy of the women's "equal pay" movement perfectly.
     
  17. conundrum

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    The man is the breadwinner, blah blah. what is this, the 19th century ?

    We are talking about knowledge based jobs here, working from home and flexitime etc. More mother friendly initiatives and the like. Of course there are excpetions but the majority of women deserve equal pay and flexible working hours where appropriate.
     
  18. conundrum

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    They want special treatment you say and within reason why not. When men do equal domestic duties and get 6 months off to raise the kids then that might also be a solution. Maybe men and employers should change their attitides to.

    Just a thought.
     
  19. dirtydog

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    What William said is that the man is often the breadwinner. That is just a statement of fact.

    That is an oxymoron. They cannot have "equal pay" and special treatment at the same time. Either do the same work on the same terms and get the same pay, OR get special treatment (time off, mother-friendly hours) and receive less money.
     
  20. dirtydog

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    And what about childless men and women?

    conundrum what do you think of the Wimbledon argument.