Upscaling DVD players worth it ?

Soldato
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I have a Panny 42" plasma, and currently, a Pioneer DV464 DVD player.
Would I see any difference in picture quality if I bought an upscaling player, as I assumed the TV does its own upscaling anyway ?

If it would make a noticable difference, what would be a good model to get ?
(budget would be circa 200 give or take a bit).
I was getting good vibes from reviews I saw on the Denon model, but then I have seen some user reports of lipsync issues, and that is unacceptable IMO.

Thirdly ... would the CD audio playback from such a player (considering they play SACD and DVD audio generally) be as good as a dedicated CD player around the 100-150 mark ?
 
Soldato
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You may find you get a better picture because of the digital connection (hdmi)...I don't know about the panny plasma's..But people on the AVforums have said that the pioneer plasma's give a better picture through there HDMI inputs.....

I know my dell monitor gives me a much clearer image then using the DVI compared to it VGA input...

(My old pioneer dvd player has broken so am thinking of going for the new pioneer DV-696AV (about £120)..
http://www.pioneer.co.uk/uk/products/42/84/222/DV-696AV-S/index.html

reviewed here http://www.homecinemachoice.com/cgi-bin/displayreview.php?reviewid=7001 )
 
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Soldato
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Hmm I am unsure about that one, the review I read on DVD times about the Pioneer DV490V, which as far as I can make out is identical except without the ability to play SACD/DVD audio, had this to say:

"Video playback: PAL movies
Sadly, this is where things begin to really fall apart. Playing PAL movies on this player reveals what I believe is commonly termed as a Picture Shift problem: the bottom few lines of the picture are misplaced at the top of the screen (almost like when you go to see a film at the cinema where the projectionist hasn't framed the image properly). My LCD TV (a Sony BRAVIA KDL-32V2000) has an option to add more overscan and sidestep this problem, but I believe this is the only LCD TV on the market that allows for this adjustment. If the glitch is visible on other displays, it's going to annoy quite a few people.
If you think this issue is annoying from the picture, trust me - when you see it full-sized, moving, and in the flesh, it's a lot worse.

What's by far more serious though, is that only ONE of the PAL discs I tried - the UK release of "Howl's Moving Castle" - was free of combing artefacts on movement (particularly noticeable on camera pans). Live action PAL content such as "Thirteen" and "Alias" both showed this problem, although it stuck out like a sore thumb on animated movies such as the UK releases of "The Incredibles" and "Monsters Inc.", the Australian PAL version of Disney's "Mulan", and the Danish PAL version of "The Nightmare Before Christmas", which contained some very grizzly panning shots. It seems that the Deinterlacing chip in this player isn't capable of properly engaging a 2:2 Pulldown Detection mode to extract the proper film frames from PAL DVDs.

I was left asking, "what's the point?" - the reason for Progressive Scan DVD players existing is to avoid motion issues like this and to present natural, film-like frames. Here's a small Flash demonstration of just how grizzly the motion on PAL movies can be. Look at how the flames in front of the man's face cause his features to jitter and lose detail. Pay special attention to the jagged look his eyes now have.

Even in "The Incredibles" - a near-flawless video transfer (and I do mean near-flawless, not the "lad's mag review" near-flawless) - some issues are created by the player. All too often, action that's too close to the letterbox bars at the top and bottom of the screen (it's a 2.35:1 ratio film) have little squares that jitter up and down over them - that is, parts of the picture change into blocks and shift a few pixels higher than the rest of the bars. It can be extremely distracting and at times, it feels like you're watching a dodgy video standards conversion.

Seeing as Pioneer advertises this DVD as having "Dual PureCinema Progressive Scan" for "PAL/NTSC", I was expecting something a little better than this.

What's more, calling Pioneer's UK support line ahead of time, I was told that this would not be an issue and that "Basically, it operates properly". If Pioneer UK think that this is an example of "operating properly" then they need to go back to the drawing board. Very disappointing indeed."


Maybe it has different internals, but the small price difference indicates not so likely ?
 
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Soldato
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this whole current fad for cheap upscaling DVD players for people with HD TVs is quite possibly the biggest scam in AV land at the moment.

I so nearly fell into the trap myself until I sat down and thought about.

anyone with a HD TV has already got a scaler built in there, otherwise your current standard def DVD player with its 476 lines or whatever it is would only fill half of your screens display.

So the only way you will get a better picture off a upscaling DVD player as opposed to a standard DVD player is if

a: its a better DVD player to start with

b: it has a better scaler then your TV

I compared the picture of my now 5 year old pioneer 565a (£250 new when i bought it) to the £250 denon that does all the fancy upscaling and found the denon somewhat wanting.

just my 2 cents
 
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But the point of scaling is it's doing the scaling in the digital domain, your TV screen won't (it'll take analogue video and scale that, thus scaling any noise) The picture from Theatrektek with Nvidia post processing DV-HDMI is far better than my Sony DVD-Video interlaced component output into my 1080p screen. It's digital scaling, so no noise is introduced, and fed digitally to the panel.
 
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Soldato
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Vogon said:
Hmm I am unsure about that one, the review I read on DVD times about the Pioneer DV490V, which as far as I can make out is identical except without the ability to play SACD/DVD audio, had this to say:

"Video playback: PAL movies
Sadly, this is where things begin to really fall apart. Playing PAL movies on this player reveals what I believe is commonly termed as a Picture Shift problem: the bottom few lines of the picture are misplaced at the top of the screen (almost like when you go to see a film at the cinema where the projectionist hasn't framed the image properly). My LCD TV (a Sony BRAVIA KDL-32V2000) has an option to add more overscan and sidestep this problem, but I believe this is the only LCD TV on the market that allows for this adjustment. If the glitch is visible on other displays, it's going to annoy quite a few people.
If you think this issue is annoying from the picture, trust me - when you see it full-sized, moving, and in the flesh, it's a lot worse.


Maybe it has different internals, but the small price difference indicates not so likely ?
Reading Avforums the pioneer DV-696AV don't have this problem....
I have another read over at avforums from owners of the dvd-player tonight...


Plus...you nromally have 7 days to return it for a full refund...
 
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Soldato
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Let us know how you find it Chaparral.
At the moment, from browsing the AV forums, It seems the upscaling thing is not too relevant with a tv that does a decent job of it.
Add to that the majority of players seem to have either lip-sync or other issues, I am now thinking I may stick wth my trusty Pioneer 464 until the format war has been settled and look into it again ...
There is that thought that maybe the HDMI input would be an improvement over RGB scart though :confused:
The cambridge Audio DV89 seems to be well reviewd in the one review I saw, and also has decent CD playback by all accounts, I have posted on AV to see if anyone has experiences with it ...
 
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Soldato
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Have to admit i rushed out and bought one, a toshiba 350e which turns out to have poor picture through HDMI although good via component(albeit component doesn't upscale sheesh) but what is worst as it has 2-3 second or more pauses during layer changes, in a word a complete waste of money.
 

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Soldato
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my understanind (albeit limited) is that the upscaling in a DVD player is digital upscaling, which introduces less/no error, and then this signal is passed through HDMI which again is a better connection, so less loss in signal quality. The gains are probably small with a good TV, but then the costs not exactly high either.
 
Soldato
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Well after a lot of reading on AV forums, I have plumped for the Oppo 981HD, from all accounts the best picture quality this side of £600 players, for £189 inc delivery, and countless positive user reports.
If nothing else I hope its an improvement over my current one just due to being connected via HDMI, also its reported to have excellent Audio, so I have ordered 4 CD's ... first I have bought in years :p one is even SACD just so I can see (hear) what its all about :)
 
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