If the guidance is heeded appropriately it will a good middle ground for exactly the reasons you describe. Implicitly no worse than just having a linesman, but with the added benefit of overruling the more glaring errors like Eto'o in the CL final. The 'guessing game' has been around for years and it's the blatant offsides/onsides that annoy people, marginal ones sure you might get a bit of noise but if it's that close people will just get on with it. You'll also in theory avoid the lengthy delays only to result in a contentious decision anyway because the images are open to interpretation, there was some Spurs game earlier this season where VAR went on for a couple of minutes or something ridiculous.
Poll: VAR or No VAR?
- Thread starter BaZ87
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If the guidance is heeded appropriately it will a good middle ground for exactly the reasons you describe. Implicitly no worse than just having a linesman, but with the added benefit of overruling the more glaring errors like Eto'o in the CL final. The 'guessing game' has been around for years and it's the blatant offsides/onsides that annoy people, marginal ones sure you might get a bit of noise but if it's that close people will just get on with it. You'll also in theory avoid the lengthy delays only to result in a contentious decision anyway because the images are open to interpretation, there was some Spurs game earlier this season where VAR went on for a couple of minutes or something ridiculous.
yeah, I agree VAR is better than a linesman.
what I don’t agree with is that drawing lines on stills is the best way to judge offside.
they do need faster frame rate cameras, an algorithm that works out when the ball was played, some level of 3D modelling like goal line tech is and adjustment to the offside law so decisions can be made more easily and look fair and consistent to fans.
The VAR tech isn't simply drawing a line on a TV replay though, it does have a 3D element to it. That's why they're able to judge offsides when the camera is not in line with the last defender.
If we're using VAR then we all want it to improve and I'm sure that hawkeye are already working on the next upgrade (12 months ago the tech was just a straight line across the pitch) and better cameras with higher frame rates will be used (again, some say they're being used now) but this is currently the best way to judge offside.
VAR for offside, imo, has been much better and consistent than VAR for pens & red cards but the reason why we're talking about it in this case more is because of the offside law. A change to that law needs to be made so that it gets back to what it was intended to be.
The difference between offsides and pens/cards is that offsides in theory shouldn't be subjective, if:
1) We have adequate technology in place to make comparisons at the correct point in time
2) The VAR panel understand the rules and how they are supposed to apply it and do so in a consistent fashion
This is because it should be essentially a binary equation of whether a player is offside or not (I acknowledge there is still a small element of subjectiveness in terms of whether a player is 'seeking to gain an advantage'). It's kinda like the no-brainer goal-line tech that was finally introduced albeit a bit more complicated because you don't have a static line to work with.
Whereas incidents involving fouls and cards are a lot more subjective, e.g. was there intent involved, was the contact sufficient enough to warrant the player going down like a sack of spuds etc. I doubt we will ever get to a position where tech can solve that problem, fair enough we might be able to overturn cards for mistaken identity etc but you know full well you won't get universal agreement from everyone on decisions involving pens, red cards etc.
1) We have adequate technology in place to make comparisons at the correct point in time
2) The VAR panel understand the rules and how they are supposed to apply it and do so in a consistent fashion
This is because it should be essentially a binary equation of whether a player is offside or not (I acknowledge there is still a small element of subjectiveness in terms of whether a player is 'seeking to gain an advantage'). It's kinda like the no-brainer goal-line tech that was finally introduced albeit a bit more complicated because you don't have a static line to work with.
Whereas incidents involving fouls and cards are a lot more subjective, e.g. was there intent involved, was the contact sufficient enough to warrant the player going down like a sack of spuds etc. I doubt we will ever get to a position where tech can solve that problem, fair enough we might be able to overturn cards for mistaken identity etc but you know full well you won't get universal agreement from everyone on decisions involving pens, red cards etc.
I understand the difference, I was just commenting on the fact that we're complaining more about VAR in relation to offsides than we are subjective calls when in fact offside calls have been more accurate and consistent. That shows me that the real issue isn't VAR but the offside law.
If the above suddenly becomes onside, defenses will just drop deeper and deeper. Teams will be defending set-plays with defenders practically on the goal line and in open play they'll be on the edge of the 18 yard box.
I mentioned it last night. They're discussing changing the law so that instead of 1mm of the attacker being ahead of the defender being flagged as offside, as long as 1mm of the attacker is level or behind the defender they'll be onside. Assuming FIFA agree to this, it then needs to be proposed to IFAB and if they agree it will need to be trialled. I'm sure, at least I hope, this will never pass because it's a terrible idea.
If the above suddenly becomes onside, defenses will just drop deeper and deeper. Teams will be defending set-plays with defenders practically on the goal line and in open play they'll be on the edge of the 18 yard box.
Nope. There's two different reports come out last night.
- IFAP are reportedly going to recommend changing how VAR is used for offsides (which could be introduced this season) so that if they cannot determine a player is either on or offside using the tech within a few minutes, the original on-field decision stands. So we're going to still spend those minutes looking at the decision but we'll then just stick with the on-field decision, which imo is totally pointless - we'll get all the delays and uncertainty of VAR but with the exact same decisions as we had without it.
- FIFA are reportedly discussing changes to the entire offside law which could be years away if it happens. As above the possible change will be to flip the current rule whereby if 1mm of the attacker is onside then they're onside rather than 1mm being offside = offside. I don't think this will ever happen though, it's a short-sighted idea that will be terrible for football.
Soldato
This is bang on, this is what it should be in my opinion. The last foot of the attacker and the last foot of the defender creates the offside line. If the feet are level, its onside, just like the ball has to be all the way out on the sidelines
That would ruin the game...it would become absolutely ridiculous and teams would be just defend deep.
It should be the same as it is now but measured from their feet. So in the image above, no part of Sterling's foot could be ahead of the defenders foot. He can lean offside but no part of his foot can be in an offside position. That will give the benefit to attackers without allowing them a huge headstart that will lead to defenders camped on the edge of their 18 yard box.
Soldato
No it wouldn't.
The game will not change, team tactics and philosophy isn't going to be uprooted because the defenders have to give an extra yard
Soldato
That would work as well. Basically, it just needs to go off the feet..
That edited image above looks really bad, but if you were to stand Stirling upright, his body is inline with the defender.
VAR and offside is working well for me. There will be a period where the players re-calibrate to what the new onside looks and feels like under VAR and i expect it to happen fairly quickly. The fact that they are getting such close calls shows that the players are able to play to fine margins.
For me, the bit that needs changing is the subjective call being made remotely. The ref should be alerted and then able to review video footage to confirm/reverse/make a decision. The alert should be fairly prudent to give as many chances of review as possible. I dont mind interruptions at all.
For me, the bit that needs changing is the subjective call being made remotely. The ref should be alerted and then able to review video footage to confirm/reverse/make a decision. The alert should be fairly prudent to give as many chances of review as possible. I dont mind interruptions at all.
He's not stood upright though, he's sprinting forwards and if the rules changed how FIFA are reportedly in discussions about then he'll have a huge advantage over a defender.
They absolutely will change. I mentioned earlier in the thread how Liverpool are actively doing the opposite at the moment because they're confident that these 10cm offside decisions will be given off. If suddenly attackers are going to have 70-80cm advantages then defensive lines will naturally drop deeper to counter it.
Soldato
Natural body position is not an advantage. There's nothing that can be done to counter the fact that the attacker will be leaning in a different direction to the defender most of the time. Its the right thing to do, go off feet, since it is football after all.
Like i said, defenders giving an extra yard is not changing how the game is played, it's such a trivial point. There will be no discernible difference in how the game plays.
First of all, I've suggested going off the feet but crucially it should be no part of the foot is ahead of the defender, not one small part of the foot being onside. It may seem a small difference in theory but in practice it makes a huge difference.
Rewind to the start of this season and watch every pundit discussing how high Liverpool were defending. You cannot say there will be no difference when we've seen with Liverpool this season that teams will defend differently due to a tiny difference in the way offsides are called - that difference being that VAR will pick up the 10cm offsides that a lino wouldn't. If Liverpool are willing to defend 10 yards higher up the pitch because VAR has meant defenders get an extra 10cm or so leeway, they will absolutely drop deeper if the change in the offside law means a 70+cm swing towards the attackers.
I don't accept that.
The average depth or width of a human being is a few tens of centimetres.
You won't suddenly be able to be on-side standing on the goal-line when the defenders are up the pitch.
Soldato
There won't be any discernible difference i said, Liverpool aren't going to drop 10 yards because of this rule change, they might drop off a few yards, but it won't make any real difference to how the game is played, the average punter won't be able to tell that a team is defending a couple yards deeper than previously. An average pitch is 115 yards in length, a couple of yards isn't going to do anything to how the game is played basically. People here are overstating what impact its going to have..