Vettel leaving Ferrari

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Has it declined though? or did just having the fastest car on the grid and a Red Bull marketing team behind him fool everyone (including Ferrari) into believing he was much better than he is? I was saying back when he spent most of his career out in front at Red Bull that we'd find out how good he is when he's in a not so special car and actually in a race (as opposed to just hot lapping with blue flags to clear traffic). It's fair to say over the last few seasons Hamilton totally outclassed him to the point of driving Vettel to road rage and now he's getting consistently outperformed by a rookie in only his second season.

Yes, it has. You don't win 4 world championships by being a mediocre driver even if you have the best car on the grid.
 
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Has it declined though? or did just having the fastest car on the grid and a Red Bull marketing team behind him fool everyone (including Ferrari) into believing he was much better than he is? I was saying back when he spent most of his career out in front at Red Bull that we'd find out how good he is when he's in a not so special car and actually in a race.



Alonso felt the same. I have remain to be convinced that Seb is going to be stronger in the midfield than Perez would be.
 
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Yes, it has. You don't win 4 world championships by being a mediocre driver even if you have the best car on the grid.

I think there's a middle ground: Vettel was flattered by the car, or the combination of car and his driving style, in those years. I do not believe he has ever been as good a driver as his stats suggest. But I also think the idea that he was a mediocrity that only won with the best car is a wild exaggeration. He was a good driver, not the best on the Grid, but not far off them. Now I'm not sure he'd even make the top ten: he's just too error prone.
 
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Russell is still under contract.
If not Merc would have taken him(my opinion)

Perez had a valid contract for 2021 and yet he's been pushed out.

Contracts in F1 may as well be written on single ply bog roll.

Perez off to Haas or Alfa Romeo possibly. Might end up with his old teammate Hulkenberg again too. :D
 
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All contacts have break clauses, there will have been something in the contract that lets RP terminate early / buy out the contract. Exactly the same as you can do with a mobile phone contract for example.
 
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Lets not pretend that it was all on Vettel. Vettel's performance has declined for sure, but Ferrari as a team have been useless for the past decade. Awful strategy calls, power struggles and politics behind the scenes that no doubt affects the whole team. Vettel went to Ferrari with the intention of following in the footsteps of Schumacher's legacy, it hasn't worked out at all and that must be a big hit to morale.

If RP/AMR put a good team around him and remove those pressures, we will see the return of his form at Red Bull I think.
I think he'll be improved at Aston Martin without the pressure of Ferrari, but I think peak Vettel of the 2010s will go unmatched. I'd argue peak Vettel was, to a degree, peak F1 for that era. I've said before that he could make those cars dance like no-one else, not even Hamilton. I'd argue had Ricciardo joined in 2013 then Vettel would have beaten him, though it would have been closer than Webber was at that stage.

I'm not saying he was the best overall at that time (Alonso coming close in a shed was more impressive over a season) but it would have been a joy to watch him at work, if it wasn't for the boredom of seeing him win so regularly.

Where he's failed is that you can't do that with the buses they have had since and while he's been fast, he can't operate at the same level as he once did. He's still better than most (including Perez in my opinion) but he'll never get back to his peak and certainly not with these hulking cars.

Aston Martin won't ever be serious contenders whilst they're picking Stroll over another driver* (last weekend showed that, turning a win into a third place), but Vettel has been a winner at two different top tier teams and will help shape them going forward. He might not win at Aston Martin, but I think he'll go a long way to helping them to lay the foundations for the team in the long term.

* For the record, I too think Stroll is better than he's usually given credit for, but he's not and never will be a driver fitting of a top 3 team. He's good enough for F1 in the current era, but not among a team that apparently has it's sight set on winning races. He's difficult to like as a fan though, particularly when he was at Williams. Better have him there than the team ceasing to exist though.
 
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I think he'll be improved at Aston Martin without the pressure of Ferrari, but I think peak Vettel of the 2010s will go unmatched. I'd argue peak Vettel was, to a degree, peak F1 for that era. I've said before that he could make those cars dance like no-one else, not even Hamilton. I'd argue had Ricciardo joined in 2013 then Vettel would have beaten him, though it would have been closer than Webber was at that stage.

I'm not saying he was the best overall at that time (Alonso coming close in a shed was more impressive over a season) but it would have been a joy to watch him at work, if it wasn't for the boredom of seeing him win so regularly.

Where he's failed is that you can't do that with the buses they have had since and while he's been fast, he can't operate at the same level as he once did. He's still better than most (including Perez in my opinion) but he'll never get back to his peak and certainly not with these hulking cars.

Aston Martin won't ever be serious contenders whilst they're picking Stroll over another driver* (last weekend showed that, turning a win into a third place), but Vettel has been a winner at two different top tier teams and will help shape them going forward. He might not win at Aston Martin, but I think he'll go a long way to helping them to lay the foundations for the team in the long term.

* For the record, I too think Stroll is better than he's usually given credit for, but he's not and never will be a driver fitting of a top 3 team. He's good enough for F1 in the current era, but not among a team that apparently has it's sight set on winning races. He's difficult to like as a fan though, particularly when he was at Williams. Better have him there than the team ceasing to exist though.
I'm sure that should they find themselves consistently fighting Mercedes for race wins and being consistently on the podium they'll be a lot more ruthless with their driver picks. At the moment though he's doing a good if not spectacular job.

I do however think given their car and how good it was supposed to be, they've started underperforming. They're being out-developed by other teams including McLaren.
 
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I do however think given their car and how good it was supposed to be, they've started underperforming. They're being out-developed by other teams including McLaren.
The underperforming was always going to be the case. I said before the season started that teams who might be a bit slower will probably still beat them in the championship due to better strategy.

There's always a case for an underdog going against the grain and doing something different - the problem is that Racing Point aren't an underdog this season, but they're still thinking like one.

For a team that can be second fastest on some tracks, they're only fourth (and would be even with the 15 points restored).

It was the same story with Williams in 2014, when Red Bull finished miles ahead in the championship, despite Williams often having the faster and more reliable car.
 
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I agree that Stroll is underrated. Many can't see past him being a "pay driver."

I'm not saying he's a top, top talent but, I think he deserves his seat on merit.
I'd agree with this. He's done well this season and has proved himself worthy of his drive. He's certainly not a Deletraz or Diniz, who himself wasn't terrible for a pay driver. I still think his personality and attitude sucks, though.
 
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Perez had a valid contract for 2021 and yet he's been pushed out.

Contracts in F1 may as well be written on single ply bog roll.

Perez off to Haas or Alfa Romeo possibly. Might end up with his old teammate Hulkenberg again too. :D


RP had a contract clause to there benefit.
Williams had Russell's contract well locked down.
 
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I do however think given their car and how good it was supposed to be, they've started underperforming. They're being out-developed by other teams including McLaren.

I think they're performing very well, and about where they should be expected to be. Yes, they modelled their car more closely on the 2019 Mercedes than is normal; but that doesn't make their car the same as the '19 Mercedes. It's clear that it performs very well on some tracks, but most of the time they're in the mix with Renault and McLaren and well behind Mercedes and Red Bull. That's a good step forward for RP, and expecting more than that is unrealistic.
 
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What makes you think Russell is so good? He's outperformed a poor driver.

I would put Ocon in a Merc or top performing car ahead of Russell who hasn't proven anything yet.

Ocon is getting soundly beaten by Dani Ric, but as we know Dani Ric is top class driver, and would be competing for Championships in a decent car.
 
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What makes you think Russell is so good? He's outperformed a poor driver.

I would put Ocon in a Merc or top performing car ahead of Russell who hasn't proven anything yet.

Ocon is getting soundly beaten by Dani Ric, but as we know Dani Ric is top class driver, and would be competing for Championships in a decent car.

I think that's why people think Russell is top drawer (I'm in this camp). Ocon is being easily beaten by a known top class driver. Russell hasn't had that challenge yet.
 
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Russell was F2 champion and has, so far, beaten every driver he’s been paired with, and consistently, almost embarrassingly so. When he’s tested for Mercedes he’s been very fast and consistent too. He will be a Mercedes Driver next season I’m quite sure.
 
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Russell was F2 champion and has, so far, beaten every driver he’s been paired with, and consistently, almost embarrassingly so. When he’s tested for Mercedes he’s been very fast and consistent too. He will be a Mercedes Driver next season I’m quite sure.

Exactly. People rate Russell as much because of what happened before F1 as what as happened since he got a seat. Back to back, dominant, victories in GP3 and F2 takes some doing. So far he's not proven himself in F1, but he's achieved everything that could be expected given the glorified sofa he's been given to drive. He's got that Trabant of a car out Q1 several times this year. That's seriously impressive.

Whether he can deliver when given the machinery remains to be seen, but he and Leclerc are the most exciting of the new breed. We've already seen what Leclerc can do, I'm excited to see how Russell measures up.
 
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Russell was F2 champion and has, so far, beaten every driver he’s been paired with, and consistently, almost embarrassingly so. When he’s tested for Mercedes he’s been very fast and consistent too. He will be a Mercedes Driver next season I’m quite sure.

JEV was also embarrassingly quick in the RB in tests.

I'm not saying he isn't a good driver or possibly a future champion. We just don't know as he hasn't been tested yet. I think it would make sense to test him first. We've seen what happened to RB drivers thrown in the deep end. If only only Merc had a mid-field team they could stick him in for a season. ;)
 
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