When are you going fully electric?

[b0rn2sk8]

Cars usually end up being scrapped due to rust. Unless they make all the EVs out of carbon fibre or aluminum that will still be an issue. Also swapping an engine in an old car is a lot cheaper than buying a new battery pack.

Whats stopping you taking a used battery pack from a wrecked EV? Isn't that what you normally do with an ICE anyway, brand new engines are silly money and literally no one is putting new engines in cars that are out of warranty or do not have exceptionally high 'contributions' from the manufacturer.

A used battery pack will be very much a known quantity due to the information you can get from the ECU's and BMS. A used engine is a complete unknown. A well used battery pack is still worth a lot of money even if it's no longer suitable for a car, a broken engine is worth its weight in scrap.

The labour cost of transplanting a battery is also next to nothing, in most cars they drop straight out the bottom with a few bolts, plugs and coolant lines. A new one can be slid in, you can drop the battery out of a Tesla in half an hour if you know what you are doing and have proper equipment.

 

[matthab]

I could go full electric now. I work 2 miles down the road, only use the car as I go back at lunch to see the dog. Work hire me a car for work trips and we have two mid size hatch backs.

Only thing really stopping me is I live in an apartment which makes charging it a pain.

 

[Matthew.M]

Sure, the journey is *possible*. Is it remotely as straightforward?


Until then? Easier and waaaaaaaaay less stress to use a diesel Kia Soul.

I'm not saying it's comparable, I'm saying it's possible. I'd still take the Diesel if I had one on a European jaunt. What I'm trying to say is that for 95% of my journeys the EV is cheaper, cleaner, more convenient and more fun. I can go 6 weeks without any public charging, it's not an issue.

However, on the one long trip I may need to make every 3 months it's still feasible. And for me, being slightly inconvenienced on that longer journey every few months, is still worth it for the benefits the rest of the time. And this is now - with poor infrastructure, slow 50kw charging and very short range cars. When the next gen of cars with longer range, higher power charging and the infrastructure catches up, the compromise will be tiny.

EV charging points are cropping up everywhere and they're very cheap and quick to build in comparison to a new petrol station. They'll continue to roll them out very quickly.

I'd argue it is straightforward, it just takes longer. The car has an onboard database of all the charging networks and for some even provides live usage data. If you plot a route out of range it will suggest charging stops. You'd be surprised how many charging points are around when you actually look for them.

Charging stops are much less than an hour - you're talking 30mins to get back to 90% in most cars of this range. The charging speed drops at that point so you wouldn't stay longer. On my long journeys the stops are generally 20mins to get back to 80% and then off again. I'd still get there in a day, just a few hours longer day

Tesla have nailed it. 300 mile range and 120kw charging on a comprehensive European charging network with plenty of bays per location. You'd hardly be inconvenienced at all on that trip.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Sure, the journey is *possible*. Is it remotely as straightforward?

[snip]

So you've got two charging stops in the UK, seven or eight at best in France depending on where you managed to find to charge. And what, an hour at each of those stops to get the battery full? You sure aren't doing that trip in two days in a 120 mile range EV then are you? Plus the lack of anything approaching convenience at the other end. Then you get to do it all over again on the way back up. At least with the hypothetical future 500 mile EV you could get to Chartres day 1, charge it overnight, and day two just add a bit of charge whenever you stop for coffee at an aire. Then you'll almost certainly have the range to get into Perpignan to charge up when you're down there.

Until then? Easier and waaaaaaaaay less stress to use a diesel Kia Soul.

Yeh, I agree in an i3 its really not ideal. Also you would need to factor in the practicalities of charging, for really long journeys you need to keep in the 'sweet spot' as charge rates tail off when as the state of charge gets above 60-70%. It's much quicker to stop more often for shorter charging sessions than it is to charge to 90-100%.

The recharge rate and the energy consumption of the car is far more important than the overall battery range when it comes to long distance journeys. Cars like the Model 3 that have low consumption and can recharge really quickly change this picture massively.

https://www.tesla.com/trips#/?v=M3_...pper Bavaria [email protected],11.581980499999986

Not much slower than an ICE and you would still need to factor in breaks on the ICE side.

Cars like the Kona are not car off the capabilities of a Tesla when it comes to long range journeys, because they use far less electricity it makes up for the slower charging speed.

 

[chroniclard]

I am seeing a lot more charging points popping up in places. Only worry would be that if demands rises you could rock up and there would be no space. Could end up waiting a while!

 

[Matthew.M]

Take my Burton-Villelongue example

Have a play with this:

https://abetterrouteplanner.com/

So looks like 3 hours charging to cover the c.1,000 miles. That's not too bad. How many meals would you stop for in a Diesel? I bet it's not much different. Expensive car again but the trip itself would be free! Well, apart from tolls and the crossing. With EVs at the moment you're moving what you would usually spend on petrol per month into depreciation on the value of the car. Once the cars get more competitive cost wise they'll become even more tempting.

 

[bimbleuk]

Only had my i3 a week and will try the 3 bay rapid charger in my home town tomorrow for practise and check the app works. I've mapped 5 charge locations around my work location for emergencies. Only 1 actually charges of those currently.

 

[Lakeland]

When they’re cheaper, have better range and charge quicker.

I’m more likely to get an electric bike first for commuting.

 

[Amp34]

The other side from a bias EV owner

Of the "when it can do 300-500 miles and recharge in 5mins" crowd, how often do you do 500miles without stopping, stop for 5mins, then need to do another 500miles?

I do around 250-300+ miles around 20+ times a year. Not always non stop, usually there's a destination in between, but there's no way I could charge at destination on most of those trips.

As for cost - yes the cars are expensive to buy there's no avoiding that. But you need to look at the total cost of ownership. My i3s costs a fair bit up front but I do 20-25k miles a year. I'm saving £250 a month just on fuel. Then there's servicing, I was servicing my previous car every 12k miles, so approx every 6 months, but my i3 is every 2 years regardless of mileage so 1/4 of the trips to the dealer, more savings there. All they do is change the brake fluid and pollen filter and maybe kick the tyres. Brake pads will cover triple the distance as they're barely used with the electric motor slowing the car down in normal driving. The only thing I've come across which is more expensive is tyres as the i3 is a daft size (20" and 175 front/195 rear wide?!) But overall I'm saving a large amount monthly and that's compared to a 45-50mpg petrol I had previously which wasn't RWD, c.180bhp and 0-60 in 6.7s. I.e. this car is way more fun to drive. I also quite like the handling as the all the weight (the battery) is in the floor of the car and I find one pedal driving very relaxing in traffic. The instant torque delivery is also hugely addictive.

This is very much dependent on the vehicle, just as it is with ICE now.

My ICE needs a "service" every 10,000 miles, but until I hit over 100k those services consist of an oil change (£20 and half an hour at home once a year), oiling door seals, checking steering/suspension and changing cabin filters. So a grand total of around £40 more a year for oil, with the rest being the same "service" requirements for an EV. At 100,000 it needs spark plugs and a coolant flush, so relatively big. The "big one" is at 150'000 miles (belts, transmission and axle fluids), which is not far off the time you may have to start thinking about changing the battery in an EV - (But I personally don't think i'll have the same vehicle at 150,000 anyway). Obviously other ICE vehicles have much more expensive service requirements, but the same with EV's.

On the other hand, as much as your i3 may not need much something like a Model 3 recommends new brake fluid every 2 years (25,000 miles) and battery coolant every four years or 50,000 miles. A Model S has a service interval of every 12,500 miles (or 12 months) and the same brake and coolant flushes as above. You can easily spend $1000+ a year on maintenance of a Model S if you follow the book, which works out a more than an equivalent ICE BMW.

Obviously they are all just recommendations rather than requirements and it's up to you whether you follow them, but it still shows it's very vehicle dependant and the savings in maintenance costs will be very dependant on which vehicles are being compared and the deal you get on the vehicle (i.e. warranty and included maintenance).

Then there's the other benefits like remotely starting the climate control etc. I actually prefer this in summer to winter, loved getting into a cold car in the recent heat wave.

You know you can remote start ICE vehicles right?

There are benefits and negatives to the various remote start options relating to ICE and EV, it very much depends on your circumstances. I don't like to start my ICE remotely when it's in the garage because it stinks the place out - EV would definitely be a benefit - but equally I'd rather have an ICE than EV to remote start and warm up when I'm parked miles from a charging point in the cold.

Basically the point of all this is to reinforce the "it depends" point. For some people it's a no brainer and they probably should be jumping on the wagon now as it'll be cheaper for them, for others there's still a long way to go before EV is a viable option. A lot of these points are only now becoming more obvious as EV adoption is increasing.

 

[Malevolence]

Never. Because what's the use in buying an EV if it just sits outside of your house like some sort of statue, assuming you can park outside of your own house, because there's no way of charging it up?

 

[Amp34]

Have a play with this:

https://abetterrouteplanner.com/

So looks like 3 hours charging to cover the c.1,000 miles. That's not too bad. How many meals would you stop for in a Diesel? I bet it's not much different. Expensive car again but the trip itself would be free! Well, apart from tolls and the crossing. With EVs at the moment you're moving what you would usually spend on petrol per month into depreciation on the value of the car. Once the cars get more competitive cost wise they'll become even more tempting.

Just has a play using the destination I drove to in April (Moab), 29 hours instead of 16. It had to go a roundabout route though because there's a lack of superchargers in a couple of spots. There's also one five hour stint at 80km/h to preserve battery so I can even go that route.

I'm hoping with the Electrify America initiative and continued expansion from Tesla that will change in the next couple of years.

EDIT: Just realised you can change vehicles - with a 100D I could do the route in 21 hours, but with a 7 hour stint at 70km/h to conserve range. A 350 mile vehicle would probably do it in only a couple more hours without sweaty bum "will I make it to the charge point" moments.

 

[smilertoo]

I dont really need distance, 100 miles is fine. What i need is affordable batteries cos i would be buying older 2nd hand ones.

 

[Matthew.M]

Just has a play using the destination I drove to in April (Moab).

USA/Canada is far too big and fuel over there is so much cheaper. EVs definitely wouldn't be the best tool for long distance there. I don't know how Tesla sell anything, in some places I think the cost of the electricity is more than petrol!

This is very much dependent on the vehicle, just as it is with ICE now.

My ICE needs a "service" every 10,000 miles, but until I hit over 100k those services consist of an oil change (£20 and half an hour at home once a year), oiling door seals, checking steering/suspension and changing cabin filters. So a grand total of around £40 more a year for oil, with the rest being the same "service" requirements for an EV. At 100,000 it needs spark plugs and a coolant flush, so relatively big. The "big one" is at 150'000 miles (belts, transmission and axle fluids), which is not far off the time you may have to start thinking about changing the battery in an EV - (But I personally don't think i'll have the same vehicle at 150,000 anyway). Obviously other ICE vehicles have much more expensive service requirements, but the same with EV's.

On the other hand, as much as your i3 may not need much something like a Model 3 recommends new brake fluid every 2 years (25,000 miles) and battery coolant every four years or 50,000 miles. A Model S has a service interval of every 12,500 miles (or 12 months) and the same brake and coolant flushes as above. You can easily spend $1000+ a year on maintenance of a Model S if you follow the book, which works out a more than an equivalent ICE BMW.

Obviously servicing your car yourself is going to be far cheaper and nothing is going to compete with that. But for people who buy new/nearly new anyway there are significant savings. I tend to buy new as my mileage is quite high and I like the peace of mind. If we're talking older cars then they're always going to be cheaper as the EV tech hasn't been here for very long. So yes, a second hand car you service yourself will wipe the floor costs wise

Interestingly on the Tesla service schedule - if you don't follow it they still honour the warranty. It's completely optional. It could never see a service in its life and they wouldn't care if it's within warranty. I think that's pretty impressive and there's no petrol/diesel manufacturer who would do the same. Although if it's on finance they do require it to be serviced then to keep residuals up, and yes it's very expensive. But then we're talking about a car which in its slowest form does 0-60 in 4.2s, they're not designed to be cheap. I'm interested to see what the Model 3 cost in the UK will actually be and what servicing that will be like.

You know you can remote start ICE vehicles right?

There are benefits and negatives to the various remote start options relating to ICE and EV

I wasn't aware, no. I know some vehicles like Range Rovers have an option of an auxiliary heater to heat the cabin in winter (which is horrendously fuel inefficient). But why would any manufacturer let you remote start a car when it could be in an enclosed space?! That sounds like a huge potential liability. People manage to kill themselves by leaving a car "running" in the garage with stop/start, it would be a nightmare if you could start it remotely as well. I've never heard of that being possible without unofficial modifications. Happy to be proven wrong, though.

EVs won't pre heat/cool if the battery is low. The heater doesn't use much power really - not compared to the traction motor. As with all things it won't suit every situation. I'm waiting for the first Tesla to get a smashed window to release a dog with the owner leaving the climate on and other people not realising


Anyway I'm just having some fun arguing the other side. I'm a petrolhead deep down (or I wouldn't be here!) and enjoy time on track (where EVs are useless). I'm also tempted by an i30 N for that and some variety so I'm never going to sit here and say "burning fuel is bad mmmmkay". But so far day to day considering my i3s was originally more of a cost saving exercise I'm enjoying it WAY more than I expected and think the way it drives suits the road really well. If we all had the same opinion life would be boring, just adding some balance to the arguments I might bring it to the motors meet next month to try and dispel a few myths!

 

[Arthur Hucksake]

I expect the near future will be people having EVs for their commute, and a seperate hybrid for longer journeys. We just don't have the infrastructure to go all in yet.

I'm certainly in no hurry.

 

[fastwunz]

When someone finally has a gun against my head.

 

[JRS]

Have a play with this:

https://abetterrouteplanner.com/

If I take the typical second day on that French trip (Chartres to Villelongue), using the following assumptions:

Driving a Chevy Bolt
I got to Chartres for my overnight stop with 25% battery left
Aim to have a similar charge level on arrival in Villelongue
Carrying luggage
Dry roads, warm weather, no headwind (would be a minor miracle)

I end up stationary charging for 4 hours 50 minutes. Add that to the 7:41 on the road, you've turned that into a very long day. In effect, it forces you to turn at least one of the charge stops into a meal stop instead of doing what my dad and I would normally do - quick coffee stops to swap seats and let the other guy drive for a bit. Add to that the amount of time you've added to day 1 as well - 1:43 charging at two stops in the UK to make sure you have at least 90% battery when you leave the UK, one 45 minute stop on the run from Calais to Chartres.

I admire you for trying, but you've not done a great deal there to convince me that an EV is a viable alternative for that trip

 

[Amp34]

USA/Canada is far too big and fuel over there is so much cheaper. EVs definitely wouldn't be the best tool for long distance there. I don't know how Tesla sell anything, in some places I think the cost of the electricity is more than petrol!

Not really, vehicles just need a bit more range than most are now for where I live and what I do. People that live on the east and west coast don't need much more range than most Europeans. It's the people that live in the middle that really need more range, they travel further and it's less populated so there's a lot less charging infrastructure available (and that will probably stay relatively similar in future).

EV still makes economic sense in most locations too. I've calculated I could save myself around $1000 a year by going EV, which is why I'd be willing to pay more for an EV up front.

Obviously servicing your car yourself is going to be far cheaper and nothing is going to compete with that. But for people who buy new/nearly new anyway there are significant savings. I tend to buy new as my mileage is quite high and I like the peace of mind. If we're talking older cars then they're always going to be cheaper as the EV tech hasn't been here for very long. So yes, a second hand car you service yourself will wipe the floor costs wise

Interestingly on the Tesla service schedule - if you don't follow it they still honour the warranty. It's completely optional. It could never see a service in its life and they wouldn't care if it's within warranty. I think that's pretty impressive and there's no petrol/diesel manufacturer who would do the same. Although if it's on finance they do require it to be serviced then to keep residuals up, and yes it's very expensive. But then we're talking about a car which in its slowest form does 0-60 in 4.2s, they're not designed to be cheap. I'm interested to see what the Model 3 cost in the UK will actually be and what servicing that will be like.

I wasn't specifically talking about older/used cars. My car for example is less than a year old. The point I'm making is outside the oil change the actual service requirements for it are no different to that of an EV up until a relatively major service at 100,000 miles (for which a Tesla will have had two battery coolant flushes to the one engine coolant flush). It still needs to go in once or twice a year, at about the same intervals as the Model S (which incidentally you won't be able to get extended warranty on if you don't get it serviced at the 12,500 mile intervals). The difference is you can get your ICE serviced by any mechanic, which isn't the case at the moment with an EV.

The point was that a blanket statement for all EV's about maintenance costs being low is incorrect. They vary significantly. As the Tesla example shows some may well cost more than the equivalent ICE vehicle (especially if you argue that the Model 3 is supposed to compete with mainstream saloons, as well as those from premium marques). It all very much depends on the specific vehicles being compared, the specific deals available on those vehicles and the way you plan on maintaining them.

I wasn't aware, no. I know some vehicles like Range Rovers have an option of an auxiliary heater to heat the cabin in winter (which is horrendously fuel inefficient). But why would any manufacturer let you remote start a car when it could be in an enclosed space?! That sounds like a huge potential liability. People manage to kill themselves by leaving a car "running" in the garage with stop/start, it would be a nightmare if you could start it remotely as well. I've never heard of that being possible without unofficial modifications. Happy to be proven wrong, though.

EVs won't pre heat/cool if the battery is low. The heater doesn't use much power really - not compared to the traction motor. As with all things it won't suit every situation. I'm waiting for the first Tesla to get a smashed window to release a dog with the owner leaving the climate on and other people not realising

It's pretty common in North America and there are numerous vehicles in the UK as well (just not as common because it's not usually cold or hot enough to really need it). It used to be just a button on the key fob, but now most companies have apps available as well, for example Jaguar In Control, Ford Pass and numerous others.

EDIT: Here's Jaguars implementation of the App, which is almost identical to Ford and presumably BMW, Audi and the others.

2.51s

Presumably they hope someone sensible enough to have a driving licence is going to be sensible enough not to gas themselves!

Anyway I'm just having some fun arguing the other side. I'm a petrolhead deep down (or I wouldn't be here!) and enjoy time on track (where EVs are useless). I'm also tempted by an i30 N for that and some variety so I'm never going to sit here and say "burning fuel is bad mmmmkay". But so far day to day considering my i3s was originally more of a cost saving exercise I'm enjoying it WAY more than I expected and think the way it drives suits the road really well. If we all had the same opinion life would be boring, just adding some balance to the arguments I might bring it to the motors meet next month to try and dispel a few myths!

I'm not the other side. I'm a real proponent of EV's, but I also think there are a lot of myths and misconceptions spread about them (from both "sides" - things like batteries dying at low mileage, but also the apparent low maintenance costs). If there was an EV that fitted my criteria I would have bought one by now. It's just everything is taking so long!

EV's aren't a revolution as such, they're just another form of transportation that (like Petrol, Diesel, propane, Hydrogen etc) will influence the transportation sector, but won't necessarily be the best solution for everyone at any particular time. The future, just like the past and the present, is going to be a mix of different types depending on specific requirements.

 

[bimbleuk]

Have a play with this:

https://abetterrouteplanner.com/

This looks good as I've spotted a couple more locations I didn't know about and I noticed the local cop shop has a 2 point charger but it's not available for public use. Also shows cable or socket only which is a small thing but useful. The i3 having a modest boot (and small semi exposed frunk) means carrying a home charger and Type 2 cable all the time "just in case" isn't always practical.

 

[jaybee]

Perhaps it depends on battery technology advances. Right now what happens when current gen electric cars get to 5-10 years old? Do the batteries last that long? Will there be such a thing as a thriving second hand electric car market? Will car buying become more of a lease thing where you have to rely on manufacturer warranty to ensure you are not left with a 3tonne brick on wheels? Will it shake up the whole service industry as less mechanical wear and tear items will exist?

It's all unknown. It will be a gradual shift but the problem is that the whole thing will only be affordable for the richer initially. It's possible it won't gather momentum at all.

 

[bimbleuk]

It's all unknown. It will be a gradual shift but the problem is that the whole thing will only be affordable for the richer initially. It's possible it won't gather momentum at all.

It was unknown but it's starting to become more clear and people are getting more confident. The independent dealer I bought my i3 from only sell EV cars and they had a wide range of Zoe, Leaf & i3 and said they sell many Zoe's due to them being in the £5-7K range.

Batteries usually come with 5 or 8 year and 100,000 mile warranties. They tend to last a lot longer than that though due to losing 10% or more effective capacity they have a better use beyond cars in battery banks for home or commercial use.

More so in the US there's already a cottage industry in taking older packs and reconditioning them for resale or exchange. The Prius having been around for a while is relatively easy to service with several companies advertising in the UK. I don't see why that won't become more common for all battery packs.

Also there's massive investment in battery tech to solve supply and reliance on rare earth metals. Already within the life of the i3 the battery pack has been upgraded by 35% capacity yet taking up no more room.