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When does jujitsu become effective?

Discussion in 'Sports Arena' started by PaulStat, 8 Jun 2006.

  1. PaulStat

    Soldato

    Joined: 1 Mar 2003

    Posts: 5,435

    Location: Cotham, Bristol

    I'm curious, what grading would you say you'd have to be before jujitsu (or any martial art for that matter) gave you the upper hand in a real one on one fight?

    Would you be able to remember what has been taught, or would your instincts take over and would there just be zero co-ordination?

    Discuss!! :D
     
  2. Gilly

    Man of Honour

    Joined: 17 Oct 2002

    Posts: 95,526

    Location: I'm back baby!

    Your second point doesn't make much sense. You practice it a lot because then it becomes your instinct.
     
  3. IceBus

    Sgarrista

    Joined: 18 Oct 2002

    Posts: 9,817

    Location: , Washington DC

    Yeah I agree with that. Martial arts condition you so that your first response is the correct one, not some flail at someone.

    Jujitsu is a pretty useful martial art for self defence purposes as it specialises on ground fighting - where most scuffles will end up.
     
  4. wozzizname

    Wise Guy

    Joined: 29 Jun 2004

    Posts: 2,210

    Location: Rainham, Kent

    In my experience third dan is the level where people are generally very capable. Clubs and instructors vary a lot though, and anything from brown belt up should have some level of practical ablility.
     
  5. theleg

    Capodecina

    Joined: 17 Oct 2002

    Posts: 13,419

    Location: UK

    First time you learn how to punch properly is when it will be useful in a real fight :o

    Jujitsu....in a real fight? Not really that effective to be honest.
     
  6. Malarkee

    Hitman

    Joined: 24 Oct 2003

    Posts: 754

    Location: England, Newcastle

    With out thinking about it? ;) thats insinct and the debate is over how long/if it will help in a fight.

    Personally I think the problem with the way most Martial Arts are taught in the UK at the moment is that you rarely put everything together in a real combat situation like you would say when you spar in boxing.

    The techniques are very effective but when some drunk bloke comes at you with a broken bottle, its hard to summon u all the knowlodge you have of correct techniques when you have entered that mindset.

    It happens a lot in kick boxing clubs, one of the blokes my dad used to try with had been doing martial arts for years such as Karate... he could ripped to peices in sparring by people with out that much experience because they where used to using their discipline in that arena whereas he wasn't. The bloke is/was (don't know him all that well ;)) a World Class Kick boxer.

    Its sort of the same as when I had my first bout. Competing is a level up from sparring, now matter how hard you know and I was no where near as good technically that night in the ring as I had been in the gym.

    if all you do is stand about in some church hall going of movements and doing very very light controlled sparring then you will of had to of been doing it for a long time before everything you have learned just goes right out of the window because some short fat drunk guy is getting stuck into you ;)
     
  7. Gman

    Mobster

    Joined: 18 Oct 2002

    Posts: 4,617

    Got to disagree with that comment, I did Jujitsu for around 10 years and i would say the only solid thing to say about it, is that its a mainly used for defence. Theres a mixture of strikes, throws , locks (which usualy take place after the throw) but to say its mainly ground work is wrong. If anything Judo is more ground work orientated.


    Again got to disagree there :). havn't had to use it for a long time but when I was younger and someone was getting a bit agressive i've never had to resort to going punch to puch with anyone as i've just slapped on some sort of wrist lock and its all over. when I get the lock on the guys mine, I can walk for miles dragging him where I want unless he wants to break his own wrist to get free ;)


    As mentioned I would say it only realy becomes instinct when you get maby into the brown belt and beyond. All the grades before that are very slow and easy and realy only about getting the techneque down.
     
  8. FishFluff

    Soldato

    Joined: 7 Nov 2003

    Posts: 5,353

    Location: Deepest, darkest Leeds

    I beg to differ. I was jumped by a couple of chavs (although only one actually swung at me) and it proved a pretty useful way to deal with them :dunno: Although I'm not sure what you're classing as a "real fight".
     
  9. SexyGreyFox

    Man of Honour

    Joined: 29 Mar 2003

    Posts: 50,862

    Getting a grade is not an indication of how hard you are.
    Getting a grade shows that you have learned new kata's, stances, punches, blocks etc.
    If grades were given out for how hard you are then I know beginners who should be Dan grades immediately.
    I did it for 4 years and got black belt status but in a real fight I'd probably get slaughtered because I haven't got the mind of a fighter.
    I know that 20 years on I could have probably been a 5th Dan but I still wouldn't be effective in a fight because my first instinct would be to run the other way.
    What I was good at was taking kicks and blows to my body that would leave other martial artists gasping but striking somebody wasn't very high on my list of things to do.
    48 years on and I've only ever head butted one person to get out of a very sticky situation when I was about 20 and I never went in that pub again.

    If you're already hard then learning a martial art should make you a better fighter.
     
  10. thebrasso

    Soldato

    Joined: 18 Oct 2002

    Posts: 5,312

    I've sparred with people who had trained in Tae Kwon Do, black belts even. And hurt them no problem. They just weren't used to being hit, and panicked (I'd say I can throw a few punches, I did amateur boxing regularly for four years).

    But as dmpoole says, unless you have the mentality of a fighter technique alone isn't enough. If you meet somebody who is more ruthless than you or is just plain crazy you will probably lose. Technique only goes so far.
     
  11. PaulStat

    Soldato

    Joined: 1 Mar 2003

    Posts: 5,435

    Location: Cotham, Bristol

    Yes but say you've had a few drinks, would it not all go out of the window?
     
  12. Morba

    Caporegime

    Joined: 7 Mar 2003

    Posts: 28,189

    Location: Krispy Kreme drive thru

    real fight experience would make the difference. knowing a martial art is one thing in training, but a completely different ball game when used in a real situation.

    even sparring and tournies / gradings isnt that useful unless your very experienced, as your fighting against a style that you know.
    try fighting a different style or just a pub fight and jujitsu wouldnt be useful at all in the early years.
     
  13. turkey73

    Hitman

    Joined: 21 Jan 2005

    Posts: 868

    Location: OcUK country

    The point of the training is to make the response an instinct, if you have to think about blocking that punch then you have already been hit.

    This of course comes down to the instructor and method of teaching. I do a lot of semi contact sparring now in Lau Gar Kung Fu and albeit I have only reached a second belt I can block a lot of kicks or punches that are directed at me, this is down to the fact that the instructor allows this and ppl do throw the punches and kicks, trying out what has been learned in the form section of the lesson.


    This was really pointed out to me when I was at University, I trained Shotokan Karate at Uni, (only got to the first belt, Orange) and thought the training regime good, full speed kicks and punches to be blocked and the idea was always to stop 'on contact'. I went home for the summer holidays and found a dojo local to my parents house, I went along and found a lot of concentration on Kata, as opposed to the full speed blocks and counters I had been doing. I was paired with a blackbelt and everything appeared to be in slow motion, he was so incredibly slow to me that I could block and counter before he realised what had occured, he even claimed to be really trying!
     
  14. Ugley_Matt

    Wise Guy

    Joined: 8 Jul 2005

    Posts: 1,510

    Guy that works in the same office teaches MMA with a good mix of stand up and ground work, seems like that would be quite good.
     
  15. Gilly

    Man of Honour

    Joined: 17 Oct 2002

    Posts: 95,526

    Location: I'm back baby!

    Not if it has become instinct, no.
     
  16. Depth

    Banned

    Joined: 19 May 2003

    Posts: 3,435

    It works well one on one, but I wouldnt like to go to the floor outside a club, as whoever your rucking with will most likely have friends waiting to beat you to a pulp.
     
  17. theleg

    Capodecina

    Joined: 17 Oct 2002

    Posts: 13,419

    Location: UK


    Bingo..

    I honestly cant remember ever seeing a 1-1 fight outside of an organised event..

    Sportsmanship is gone :o
     
  18. PaulStat

    Soldato

    Joined: 1 Mar 2003

    Posts: 5,435

    Location: Cotham, Bristol

    I actually put this to my sensei as to what you would do, he said "simple just kill the guy you're dealing with on the floor by stamping on his temple, and then deal with the next fella" :D
     
  19. wozzizname

    Wise Guy

    Joined: 29 Jun 2004

    Posts: 2,210

    Location: Rainham, Kent

    This article is worth a read if you're interested in the street fighting vs martial arts argument - http://www.shikon.com/disp_art.asp?aid=A265114623834&typ=AG1003

    Any of the Dennis Jones articles are worth a read - he was a Kyokushinkai black belt back in the seventies who turned to door work, which he has been doing for over twenty years.
     
  20. panthro

    Capodecina

    Joined: 19 Nov 2004

    Posts: 11,810

    Location: Wokingham

    These kind of threads always come up, and they always end up with no definite conclusion.