Why being an Engineer means nothing in this country

Soldato
Joined
13 Oct 2004
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South Shields
Like I said my course was the only one in Europe like it and pretty much 98% of people who graudate have a job lined up when they finish in our field. The 2% just happen to be lazy and assume people will ask them for jobs.

What do you do? Also what course and what uni?

KaHn
 
Associate
Joined
7 May 2006
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1,965
I think people in here should be more proud of their own achievements, more then worrying about a word or other peoples. So what if a washing machine repair man calls him self an engineer and you spec millions of pounds of equipment I think clearly you can see the difference.. so why care. There are millions of jobs that have titles that possibly they shouldn’t have or aren’t relevant.

I mean I work in IT and my job title almost changes monthly depending on what I'm doing (do to the nature of different projects etc). I just refer to my self as a pc monkey.... feed me a banana give me a spanner and I'll swing in and fix the pc, server or infrastructure. I get called an engineer all the time and I don’t have a degree but people at the same level as me have degree's and get called engineers. Honestly why care so much its not like your going to get the engineer title set to only people that have sat engineering degrees.

I just think some people in here are far to up there own backsides its not a e-penis swinging title contest.... although that would be a good post... :D
 
Soldato
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Shakespeare’s County
I think people in here should be more proud of their own achievements, more then worrying about a word or other peoples. So what if a washing machine repair man calls him self an engineer and you spec millions of pounds of equipment I think clearly you can see the difference.. so why care. There are millions of jobs that have titles that possibly they shouldn’t have or aren’t relevant.

Because the titles are skewing salaries, such the washing machine man and speccer of a million quid machine are not paid a significant amount differently.
 
Caporegime
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Cambridge
Because the titles are skewing salaries, such the washing machine man and speccer of a million quid machine are not paid a significant amount differently.

How are the scewing salaries, I don't get that comment mate. Our mechs call themselves engineers. I have no problem with that, they are paid the market rate for the job they do and availability to replace them. As am I. Its harder to replace the license guys so they get double the money.

Surely the washing machine fixer is paid for how difficult his job is and the training required to replace him.

The same must be true for the speccer of a million quid machine. He would be paid much more than the washing machine fixer if his job was that hard to train for or there was a short fall in people attaining the required qualications?

Its interesting though because I guess your experience depends on where you have worked. When I worked at Marshalls never once in all the time I was there did I hear a designer get called an engineer. Regardless of degrees or qualifications.

As I've said before CAD and the ability to train people fast to use it really hit the designers money there. When I started there in 90 they got a lot more money than the shop floor. Even in the apprenticeship phase they got paid much more. Now they are a good 10-20k down on the shop floor.
 
Soldato
Joined
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Scun'orp
If anyone asks me I say I am a "professional engineer". I leave out the mechanical bit as they would usually assume it was something to do with car maintance. If they are interested such that they follow up asking what type of engineering I tell them etc, but if they don't I assume they are not really bothered either way and leave it at that.
 
Associate
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1 Oct 2008
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82
Technically that is not correct. You need at least 4 years with the right proveable competances and experience which some will not get in the 4 years since they have graduated.

Yes, I just thought you were smart enough to add in the "right proveable competences and experience" yourself.
 
Soldato
Joined
21 Apr 2003
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4,328
If anyone asks me I say I am a "professional engineer". I leave out the mechanical bit as they would usually assume it was something to do with car maintance.
Aye. Electronic Engineer usually brings on the assumption that I would fix a telly. Occasionally I stick the word "Design" in the middle.

The main annoyance over the fact that 'Engineer' in this country isn't considered 'professional' isn't only due to people down the pub getting-it-wrong, but also that mortgage lenders etc. don't seem to know how professional the work of a design engineer truly is. I've known people who are running multi-million dollar projects, heads of departments, HUGELY respected and very well paid - struggle to land a mortgage. Also compared to the 'professions' engineers are extremely underpaid for their level of expertise. Grrr.

I think some of the confusion comes over the roots of the word 'engineer' - in this country it evokes thoughts of machinery, mechanics in overalls, steam trains, cars, and so on.

In Europe, engineers are known as - for example - ingenjör (Sweden) / ingénieur (France) / Ingenieur (Germany) - all from the root of the word "ingenious" - which makes us think more of clever, cunning, inventor-types.
 
Associate
Joined
23 May 2005
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2,156
I know a person who is a part time mechanic and he refers to himself as an engineer when people ask his profession just because he fixes engines.

Also, a friend works for Virgin Media, he refers to himself as an installation engineer when people ask him.
 
Soldato
Joined
21 Apr 2003
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4,328
I know a person who is a part time mechanic and he refers to himself as an engineer when people ask his profession just because he fixes engines.

Also, a friend works for Virgin Media, he refers to himself as an installation engineer when people ask him.
The former is almost valid, really, given that he works on engines.

This is why we're so muddled, we ought to be "Ingenier"!
 
Soldato
Joined
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Kirkcaldy, Scotland
I'm an electrical design engineer (or "proper" engineer by your logic) I couldn't care less who calls themselves an engineer. I enjoy my work as its very challenging, i get paid well for it, who cares about anyone else. Half the time I dont even use an email signature as some people are so pretentious about it. You get guys with <Name> (CENG,IET,CIBSE, BENG HONS, HND) and I just think, do you think so little of yourself you need to add all that!

If you feel the need to have a title that somehow in your mind puts you above the general public then theres something weird going on.
 
Soldato
Joined
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Scun'orp
heh, this has brougt back fond memories of playing Return to Castle Wolfenstein multiplayer. "Ve need an In-jin-ear!"

"I'm a Loytnunt"
 
Soldato
Joined
1 Oct 2004
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10,772
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Cambs/Herts
No-one knows what we really are.............that is what is frustrating. None of this I > U.

I agree. For it's not a pretentious "oh I wish people knew how amazing I am", it's more that I wished people understood the profession.

Lets be clear if you went to a hospital and the person treating you called themselves a doctor but had never done a degree in medicine and was in fact a nurse it would matter.

But somehow the same doesn't apply for engineering.

Job title inflation undermines the genuine value of skilled labour. The technician class in this country has been thoroughly undermined by everyone calling themselves an engineer. I work with many highly skilled highly experienced technicians without whom I couldn't do my job but they wouldn't call themselves engineers. They understand and appreciate the differences even if the rest of this ignorant country doesn't.

Titles matter, and where possible they should be accurate.

When I get my next promotion and my job title changes people in my industry will have clear understanding of my experience, responsibility and skill and they will expect a certain level of ability from me and treat me appropriately.

Someone planning and overseeing large complex tasks involving indepth technical knowledge, deep general understanding and significant responsibilty shouldn't share titles with people that fit and repair standard components using standard techniques. It misleads people, or rather it should if people weren't ignorant of what an engineer is.

Sums it up really.
 
Associate
Joined
26 Jun 2008
Posts
267
An engineering degree usually lasts 4 years including the Masters year to achieve recognition from the body of Chartered Engineers, CEng. An engineering degree is very demanding and not many people get through to become a chartered engineer. It involves problem solving techniques, heavy mathematics and science principles, such as Physics (Mechanical & Aeronautical Engineering), Chemistry (Chemical Engineering) and Biology (Medical Engineering) amongst many other fields. In order to succeed you would need to understand concepts from first principles such as Newtons Laws of Motion and Fluid Viscosity. Bernoulli concepts and electrical laws such as Ohms and Faradays laws. How a capacitor works and how it can analogue real life situations. It also involves thorough research using the most accurate and precise instruments and skills that are not taught over night. Such as CAD programs (AutoCAD), programming software (MatLab), economic value engineering to determine the cost to usefulness ratio.
I’ve also missed a hell of a lot more but you get the message.

So that’s 4 years of hard learning, plus many more years of experience in the industry and you’re still learning some more.

Then a plumber/electrician/boiler man/car mechanic comes a long to your home to fix what ever needs fixing and calls him self an “engineer”.
When something goes wrong, these companies send out “engineers” to fix the problem.

It is now a case that engineers and these “call out helpers” are now categorised in the same league as non/semi-skilled.

Did those people go to university to get a degree? Did those people receive recognition (not that it even means anything any more)?

When was the last time a plumber/electrician/boiler man/car mechanic used the Euler Buckling Theory to design a bridge that will span the Severn River?

Here Here

I myself am an engineer, spent four years at uni now dealing in structures etc..and someone who can unscrew a bolt on a washing machine can also call themselves an engineer tut tut. Try putting washing machine engineer on you CV in Europe or the US and see what happens.
We get know respect and our pay reflex this.
 
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