Williams F1 Team up for Sale

Soldato
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Guys guys guys.

You are comparing apples and oranges as engines do not exist anymore in F1, remember?

Teams now use "power units". Its not not an engine. It's just a lump of metal with combustion chambers, pistons, fuel injection and an electric motor or two strapped to the side. Nothing like an engine!

:p
 
Caporegime
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No ones going to buy Williams are they, what exactly would be the point?
It’s not really about Williams themselves. It’s the factory, the staff, the entry to F1 itself and all the equipment they have.

If any manufacturer or billionaire was looking at F1 its a whole lot cheaper than starting from scratch. Like a billion cheaper. I have no doubt that there are talented people working there, whether they’re being held back purely by finances, management style, management themselves or some other reason I don’t know, but as a current F1 team it has to be attractive for any company or person considering F1.
 
Caporegime
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I've been that way since at least 2016? When the turbos hit it felt very "meh" to me and not just that, it was always a Mercedes winning or on pole or both. You knew if a Mercedes was on pole it was a win. The same applied to Red Bull. You always knew whoever got pole mostly and mainly won the race. Every time.

I've watched some races of passed years but at least 2018 and 19 I watched 0 because the races I watched it always felt, so predictable. I really have no favourite driver or team anymore but the best excitement I remember was 2009. Bahrain, pole was up for anyone. Nowadays it's mainly one or two teams and I used to constantly watch every part of F1, practice sessions, qualifying, Ted Analysis/notebook and then the race and post discussion.

Now I'll just not look at it sadly. The cars still sound boring sadly.
The last car on Pole that wasn’t a Mercedes, Red Bull or Ferrari was actually a Williams?

I also agree, having been to see the cars at Silverstone in 2017 I wouldn’t say they sound crap, far from it. Sure they’re no ear splitting V10 scream that you needed ear defenders for otherwise you’d be deaf for hours afterwards, but they sounded mega to me. Still very loud but the pitch is different so it’s not so painful. You could also hear the other things like tyre squeal, tyres on kerbs etc too. They certainly did sound rubbish when they first hit the track in the turbo hybrid era, like farting and so dull, because sound is lost power on a turbocharged car. They realised this and fixed it.
 
Caporegime
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Williams were never fighting for wins since BMW left. The resurgance of a few years back was simply because they had the best engine on the grid and everyone else had junk. If BMW had stayed with Williams instead of going to Sauber it might of been a completely different ball game as Williams were a much stronger outfit to Sauber. The sport as a whole needs a complete shake up though. I haven't watched a single race from last season yet continue to watch WRC and BTCC so thats speaks for itself really.

It's a difficult one to fix as well as development needs to be alowed while at the same time costs need to be kept down. Mercedes would be no where near as dominant if everyone could develop their engines.
If you haven’t watched a single race from last season, how can you comment from a position of expertise? You missed some cracking races. Austria was amazing for one. And do you like BTTC because they let the drivers crash and smash into each other so much? F1 is open wheel, you’ll never get away with allowing racing and contact like that in F1.
 
Soldato
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It’s a poor spectacle that makes a few fast fortunes, while historic teams that made the sport hang on by their finger nails. For the money it all costs, the entertainment on show is poor.
 
Caporegime
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It’s a poor spectacle that makes a few fast fortunes, while historic teams that made the sport hang on by their finger nails. For the money it all costs, the entertainment on show is poor.
And Liberty have realised that and are making changes to bring the teams closer together.
 
Soldato
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I don't understand why people like to hate on F1 so much. Sure it has it's bad points and somethings haven't worked over the years, but personally I have loved watching the last 13 years of F1. I think some people have a weird nostalgia thing where they believe things were better in the past.
 
Caporegime
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I don't understand why people like to hate on F1 so much. Sure it has it's bad points and somethings haven't worked over the years, but personally I have loved watching the last 13 years of F1. I think some people have a weird nostalgia thing where they believe things were better in the past.

It's not weird nostalgia. All forms of Motorsport were better in the 80's/90's!

Watch Nigel Mansells race in Hungary 89. That kind of epicness just doesn't happen these days.
 
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Soldato
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It's not weird nostalgia. All forms of Motorsport were better in the 80's/90's!

Watch Nigel Mansells race in Hungary 89. That kind of epicness just doesn't happen these days.

Even Martin Brundle has spoken about it during live broadcasts stating how the racing isn't the same, too safe, no risk, no gravel traps but massive run off areas. You name it, he's discussed it since BBC to Sky.
 
Caporegime
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maybe if williams would have kept the world champions instead of letting them split away to other teams... they would have been a lot more financially stable and successful other the years.

seems like they made a terrible bunch of decisions since the 90s
 
Caporegime
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maybe if williams would have kept the world champions instead of letting them split away to other teams... they would have been a lot more financially stable and successful other the years.

seems like they made a terrible bunch of decisions since the 90s

Drivers come and go. Letting Adrian Newey go to McLaren is just one of many mistakes that they did that led them down this path since their dominance of the 90's.
 
Caporegime
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It's not weird nostalgia. All forms of Motorsport were better in the 80's/90's!

Watch Nigel Mansells race in Hungary 89. That kind of epicness just doesn't happen these days.
Picking and choosing a race here and there doesn't show the full picture though. I'll expand more when I'm at my PC later this evening but racing back then wasn't all that great. Drivers routinely leading by 30+ seconds, three or four cars on the lead lap by the end of the race, multiple retirements, huge gaps in performance that even dwarf how 'slow' Williams were last season. A very definite pink tint to your glasses I'm afraid.
 
Caporegime
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Picking and choosing a race here and there doesn't show the full picture though. I'll expand more when I'm at my PC later this evening but racing back then wasn't all that great. Drivers routinely leading by 30+ seconds, three or four cars on the lead lap by the end of the race, multiple retirements, huge gaps in performance that even dwarf how 'slow' Williams were last season. A very definite pink tint to your glasses I'm afraid.

There were 24+ cars on the grid back then too so there was a lot of dross at the back. Last decent race I have watched in F1 was Canada 2011. It really has been that bad. If someone would list top ten races of all time I bet very few would have been from the last decade.

You are in pure denial if you think F1 is in a good place right now.
 
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Caporegime
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There were 24+ cars on the grid back then too so there was a lot of dross at the back. Last decent race I have watched in F1 was Canada 2011. It really has been that bad. If someone would list top ten races of all time I bet very few would have been from the last decade.

You are in pure denial if you think F1 is in a good place right now.
It's not in a great place, but it's in a better place than it has been many times in the past. Remember when McLaren won every race except 1? That was the 'hey day' of F1 according to some people. I wrote this on Pistonheads a few years ago, it still applies now (apologies about the links, they don't carry over):

Last year (I think) I wrote a long diatribe about how everyone has a major case of rose-tinted glasses about the so called hey day of F1 in the late 80's and early 90's and how it was some sort of amazing product that people lapped up. Believe me it wasn't.

Cars often finished double digit seconds behind each other. 1/3 of the field often retired with mechanical issues. It wasn't unheard of for only three or four cars to be on the lead lap.
Britain 1985. Mansell, Senna, Prost, Rosberg, Lauda. The times people rave about. Prost finished a lap ahead of second. A whole lap! If you don't think Alain was nursing his car like f
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king buggery for 3/4 of the race then you don't know F1 at all.
Brazil 1989. TWELVE cars retired and 6 were on the lead lap.
Brazil 1992 TWO cars finished on the lead lap. TWO! The gap? 29.330 seconds. Enthralling I'm sure you'll agree. SIXTEEN cars retired. That's more than finished the race!

1995 British GP. Five cars finished on the lead lap. The last points paying position, 6th, was a lap down! Farcical!

Lets jump ahead, 2005 British GP. . Cars were getting more reliable it's true, but the gulf in money was also taking it's toll. Nine cars finished on the lead lap.

The 2019 GP 13 cars finished on the lead lap. There were three retirements. The Hass's crashed into each other (
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) and Giovanazzi spun and retired. Reliability is streets ahead of where it used to be compared to even ten years ago. F1 wasn't 'better' then. Some just wear pink glasses and only remember the brief on-track fights that were sporadic in the extreme.


F1 wasn't 'better' by any stretch of the imagination back then. It was utter s
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t compared to now. Races were more a test of reliability than driver performance. Cars were constantly babied, tyres too. All this talk of 'they raced flat out back then!' is utter horse s
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t. And why does Murray get a free pass for making mistakes (and he made several per race) but when Crofty mixes up a car where the driver is hardly even visible behind the Halo everyone wants to rip him to shreds?

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To use your Hungarian GP story, Mansell started 12th in his Ferrari. 2.2 seconds behind Patrese on Pole. Last years GP first to tenth was just over 1.5 seconds. Mansell won with a breathtaking overtake of Senna when he was baulked by Stefan Johansson and Mansell was able to pass. He went onto win the race by 26 seconds. Boutsen was third, 38 seconds further back. Compare that to 2019 and TBH, I'll agree it doesn't make great reading. Four cars finished on the lead lap. But that only goes to show the dominance of Mercedes, Red Bull and Ferrari, something the FIA and FOM are trying to resolve. Only 1 car retired, Grosjean with Water pressure issues. Thirteen cars retired in 1989, including pole sitter Patrese.
 
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Caporegime
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I have watched recent reruns on the F1 YouTube channel and it has been so much more fun than anything of the past decade. Is it difficult to understand that the vast majority of people enjoyed it more before? F1 now is exactly the same as WRC in the mid 00's with Loeb winning everything. F1 did have its dominance in the past but their was always someone nipping at the heels of the lead team or was a battle between two of the greatest drivers. Nothing has even come close to challenging Mercedes in the past 6 years. Anyway this is going far too off topic so will be my last post on the matter.
 
Soldato
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I think a lot of what is missing now is the sense of excitement more than the racing. You can have good racing and good races with any set of rules in the right circumstances. What sets the past from the present is the sense of what might happen at any point.

In the 80s, 90s and earlier than that, there was always unpredictability. An engine could pop at any point and change the race (much more unlikely now with a billion sensors) but more than anything the cars looked on edge. Look at Hockenheim or Monza from the 80s or 90s - the cars weren't driving in a straight line, they were twitching and bouncing along the straights. It looked terrifying and difficult. All that has gone from F1 now.
 
Caporegime
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Fuel and tyres have become too over-regulated, back in the day a 3-stop strategy could work out to be faster than 2-stop due to carrying less fuel and fresher tyres and you'd have the spectacle of cars working their way through the field. They got rid of it all and put everyone on near enough the same strategies and then had to add artificial boost buttons due to lack of overtaking. They're choking the sport with excessive rules.
 
Caporegime
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Fuel and tyres have become too over-regulated, back in the day a 3-stop strategy could work out to be faster than 2-stop due to carrying less fuel and fresher tyres and you'd have the spectacle of cars working their way through the field. They got rid of it all and put everyone on near enough the same strategies and then had to add artificial boost buttons due to lack of overtaking. They're choking the sport with excessive rules.

It is funny when you hear the engineers say "push overtake button" which is essentially what DRS is. I do miss refueling as well but i understand its removal from a budgetry constraint. Having to use up a certain set of tyres is just silly though. Let them race each other on the best compound available and that's it.
 
Soldato
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I would allow any combination of tyre compound
I would have engine from a given manufacturer selection by lottery that way they would all be the same.

Sticky tyres or rock hard no centre ground the stickies would have to be 2 secs faster for 10 laps.just about giving you a pit stop. But the rocks would be super consistent.
 
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